Posts by Vidqun

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Boccur makes an interesting case. But he'll have to do better than that to convince me to substitute an OG reading for a MT reading. There's a reason why Theodotion's version of Daniel supplanted the OG version. And if we get into the identity of Father and Son and the Trinitarian controversy, that would take us into the first few Christian centuries, which is very late in the game. Here's Dan. 7:13, 14 in the Gottingen Septuagint, the phrase in question glaring in its absence. Who am I to question such specialists?

13 om. τῆς νυκτός 62′ | μετά = Marc. 14:62 Apoc. 1:7] επι Q Sa Hippol.Ant.HS Eus.ecl. Chr. (= I828) PsChr. II799 Tht. IV524 = οʹ et Matth. 24:30 26:64 | ὡς Cyr.VIII648] ωσει 62′ 449 C′−87 26 46′ 106 407 590 Cyr. III1048 | ἐρχόμενος B-26-46′-239 Q V 538 LaS Hippol. Eus.dem. p. 440, 10 et ecl. CyrHieros. p. 909 Didym. p. 893 PsAth.IV697 Chr.I828 VII553 PsChr. II799 Cyr. I313 IX933 X309 Hil. Aug.ep. 198, 3] + ην A′’ L’-311 C′ 230′’ 407 534 590 Arab Eus.dem. p. 495, 23 et eccl. theol. et c. Marc. Chr. (= I294) Tht. Cyr. VI284 VIII 648. 1048 Aug. civ. 18, 34 = 𝔐; + αυτος ην 62′; ηρχετο Tht. IV524 = οʹ; venit verss.p Lucif.; veniebat Vig. c. Eut. 1, 14 PsVig. c. Var. 1, 47 | om. καὶ προσήχθη αὐτῷ Aeth Eus.dem. p. 440, 10 CyrHieros. p. 909 Tht.IV524 PsVig.; om. καί A’ | προσήχθη αὐτῷ B-46′ Q* LaS Hippol.Ant.p Didym. Lucif. Hil. PsVig. trin. 3] προσηνεχθη αυτω Qc Hippol. p. 210, 18 et Ant.p Eus.dem. p. 495, 24 et ecl. et eccles. theol. PsAth. IV697 = Sixt.: cf. Is. 53:7 σʹ; αυτω προσηνεχθη 230; ενωπιον (εμπροσθεν Eus.) αυτου προσηνεχθη (+ αυτω 62′ 311-lII Chr. Tht.p) O L′’ C′ 106 233′ 393 407 534 590 Co Arab Arm Eus. c. Marc. Chr. (= I 294. 828) Tht. Cyr. I 313 VI 284 VIII 648. 1048 IX 933 X 309 Aug. civ. 18, 34; ενωπιον αυτου (+ και 584) προσηγαγον αυτον A’ 26 = 𝔐; pr. ενωπιον αυτου 239

14 αὐτῷ ἐδόθη] tr. verss.p Hippol.Ant.p Eus.dem. p. 495 et ecl. Cyr. I 313 Lucif. Hil. = οʹ | ἀρχή … τιμή] tr. 311 CyrHieros. p. 909 Tht.p; αρχη … εξουσια Sa; εξουσια … τιμη Eus.ecl.: cf. οʹ | γλῶσσαι] pr. και B 538 106 verss.p Hippol.p Hil. PsVig. trin. 3 = 𝔐: cf. 3:4 | δουλεύσουσιν αὐτῷ Q-233 46′ 590 Co Aeth Arab Hippol. Eus.ecl. Didym. p. 893 PsAsAth. IV 697 Hil. PsVig. trin. 3] δουλευουσιν αυτω B-239 LaS CyrHieros. p. 909 Lucif.; αυτω δουλευουσιν A’ 538-88 c Eus.dem. Chr. I 294; αυτω δουλευσουσιν (-σωσιν 62′ 230) O L-311-449 C 26 106 230’ 393 (+ και υπακουσονται: ex 27) 407 534 Arm Eus. eccl. theol. et c. Marc. Chr. (= I 828) Cyr. VI 284 VII 656 VIII 648. 1048 IX 933 X 309 Tht. Aug. civ. 18, 34 = 𝔐: cf. 27 | ἡ ἐξουσία] αυτω ουσια 534; pr. και L’-311 LaS Aeth Arab Arm Tht. Ir.lat Lucif. Hil. = οʹ | ἐξουσία1°◠2° 88 | om. καὶ ἡ βας. αὐτοῦ οὐ διαφθ. 230: homoiot.; om. καί LaS | οὐ ult.] pr. η V Aeth = 𝔐

Joseph Ziegler, Olivier Munnich, and Detlef Fraenkel, eds., Susanna, Daniel, Bel et Draco, vol. XVI, 2, Vetus Testamentum Graecum. Auctoritate Academiae Scientiarum Gottingensis Editum (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1999), 339–341.

In the Foreword to Daniel Pietersma explains: "It is not until 7-12 that one generally finds the common vocabulary in the two Greek versions to run around 50% and portions (e.g., 7.10, 25; 8.11-17, 21-23; 9.3-4, 11-12, 19-20, 27; 10.3-6, 19-20; 11.38) where there is extensive argreement for a verse or more. Some of the places where there is agreement can be demonstrated to be due to textual corruption, while others are incidental agreements that would be expected from two independent translators working from a similar source text. However, the portions of the Greek versions in these chapters where the verbal agreements between the texts are strong give the appearance that the TH text is a revision of the OG."

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Peacefulpete, in the end much ado about nothing. NETS used the Gottingen Septuagint as basis. Those editors as well as Pietersma and team view it as a transcriptional error [καὶ ὡς παλαιὸς (Dan. 7:13 LXT) > καὶ ἕως τοῦ παλαιου (Dan. 7:13 LXXRH)], therefore the similarity between the Old Greek and Theodotion in their translation. I thought it was a long shot and it is a long shot, but interesting nevertheless.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Not sure how one can view "someone like the son of man" the same as the Ancient of days. He approached the Ancient of days and kingship was bestowed upon him.

Daniel 7:13, 14 (OG) I was watching in the night visions, and lo, as it were a son of man was coming upon the clouds of heaven. And he came as far as the ancient of days, and the attendants were present with him. And royal authority was given to him, and all the nations of the earth according to posterity, and all honor was serving him. And his authority is an everlasting authority, which shall never be removed-- and his kingship, which will never perish.

--- Daniel (TH) I was watching in the night visions, and lo, as it were a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came as far as the ancient of days and was presented to him. And to him was given the dominion and the honor and the kingship, and all peoples, tribes, languages shall be subject him. His authority is an everlasting authority, which will not pass away, and his kingship will not be destroyed.

(Dan. 7:13, 14 NETS)

Theodotion based his text on the MT. It became the standard Daniel text. Most modern scholars believe the OG version to be based on a different, unidentified text because of the differences. Few MSS remain with it as their text.

However, it seems as though "son of man" was a common designation at the time. Gabriel refers to Daniel as such (cf. Dan. 8:17). Of course the context is different. Same goes for Ezekiel. In the vision the person coming before the Ancient of days is referred to "someone like a son of man," quite apt for a heavenly setting, where a human would not survive. Makes sense to me.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Jesus referred to himself as "Son of man" approximately 60 times. Difficult not to make the connection.

7

renewed active cooperation of the WTG as an NGO at the UN

by Pedro in

there is news about the wtg's cooperation with the un as an ngo.. according to the un, every ngo is obliged by statute to actively work towards the goals of the un.. the historical case on the same topic, from 1992-2001, should be known.. at that time, the cooperation was exposed by a report in the british daily newspaper “the guardian” on october 8, 2001.. the wtg canceled its membership a day later under the pressure of outrage from some congregations.. many witnesses couldn't believe it and wrote to the un asking for information as to whether it was true.. the un response letter is still available on the un homepage.. here is the link to the un statement.

https://www.un.org/en/civil-society/watchtowerletter.

now it is time again!.

Vidqun

This is an Indian NGO and not connected to the UN. If the connection to the UN can be proved, I will believe. This is probably an NGO connected to the Indian Government.

66

My decision.

by MissDaSilva in

jw
friends

i’ve decided to disassociate from the jw organisation.

i cannot be part of a community that blatantly rejects the sacrifice of jesus in that demonic memorial ritual.

amazing what information you find when you start researching.. i’m writing my letter and posting it to the kingdom hall this morning.

Vidqun

Good decision. If some wants to know, Where will you go? Answer: I remain a follower of Christ and a worshipper of Jehovah. Nothing has changed.

John 6 is a good incentive to disassociate. It has some serious implications: "Accordingly Jesus said to them, Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves." (John 6:53 NWT) No room for spectators in this warning!

Another scripture I found helpful, is Rev. 7:1. When will the sealing of the 144,000 take place? This is clearly a future occurrence. The transition between chapters 6 & 7 of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰτοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. This must still take place. So you are presumpteous to say the least if you view yourself as one of the 144,000.

Everything of the best with your new life.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

No, obviously we're not on the same page. Please identify God's people from the thousands if not millions of churches? At this stage none of them qualify. The Philadelphia congregation represents all people on earth in the 21st century? Nope. I don't see it like that. It's a stretch.

Armageddon in Pidgin English is "the big buggerup." That's how I see Christendom at the moment. So unity must be established before the GT. I'm not going to go over it again. That would be boring. Clue: It has to do with the fulfillment on Joel and Acts. Soon!

Joel 3:1, 2: Who are the priests and who are the minsters? Please identify them so that I can join. There's thousand if not millions of denominations to choose from. At this stage I don't want to go there.

You've got this right. peirasmos/2346. thlibó = affliction/distress/calamity/suffering. It has quite a wide meaning. Notice test = suffering. Remember, Jesus was tested in the wilderness by Satan.

θλῖψις. Greek for “tribulation.” In our literature (as in LXX) frequently and in the metaphysical sense trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. Of distress that is brought about by outward circumstances.

πειρασμός (= “test”) means “an attempt to learn the nature or character of something,” test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7) πρὸς πειρασμόν to test you 1 Pt 4:12. διὰπειρασμόν τινα because you are being tried in some way Hm 9:7. Perh. Js 1:2 and 1 Pt 1:6 belong here (cp. Pind., O. 4, 22 διά πειράτοι βροτῶνἔλεγχο=trial is the test of mortals; sim. N. 3, 70f). Some translate passive Greek verb πειρασμός with “being tempted,” i.e., an attempt to make one do something wrong, temptation, enticement to sin. If this is the case, Jesus’ admonition to the Philadelphians might not refer to the Great Tribulation after all (cf. 2 Thes. 2:2, 3).

All the nations won't fit on the low plain of Jehoshaphat (= Jehovah is judge). Same goes for the Mountain of Megiddo. These I view as a world situation rather than a geographical location.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Without focusing on hour/time, what is the judgment that starts with the house of God?

This does not concern me at this stage. First the house must be constituted, then the judgment will start there. As yet I don't see God's house being established.

He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the time of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”] What judgment from God takes place there?

By this time, God's judgment is between Him and His enemies (Armageddon).

What is the test that is going to be put upon all dwelling on the earth?

As said, here Jesus is reassuring the first century Philadelphian congegation. As far as I know, it doesn't exist anymore. What was the test? Your guess is as good as mine.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, yes, here we are on the same page. I also see it as that. Many in Christendom want a third temple to be built. The followng scriptures explain the real meaning of the temple. If one understands this, a lot of things start making sense.

16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?

17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are. (1 Cor. 3:16, 17)

16 And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said, I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people. (2 Cor. 6:16)

21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.

22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit. (Eph. 2:21, 22)

6 For it is contained in Scripture, Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.

7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,

8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense. These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. (1 Pet. 2:6-8)

Just about the contents, sequence and length of the GT that we differ. I follow in the main the natural chronology of Revelation, with a few exceptions. This I compared to Jesus' sermon on the Mount, especially Matthew's version. You construct your timeline according to events. So as time progresses, we will see what actually transpires.

Are you aware that 42 months = 1,260 days = time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 (prophetic) years? One month = 30 days. Daniel and John in Revelation use the same time keeping standard. And both Hebrew and Greek dictionaries confirm this.

On the other hand, seven means heavenly perfection. I will hold on to my seven years, until I am proven wrong. What puts me off from the seven years number is that Christendom also believe in a seven year tribulation period based on Daniel (9:27). Here I believe they are in error. The seventy weeks of Daniel is a unit which can be proved by grammar. So, the seventy weeks applies exclusively to Jesus' first coming. As you might have noticed, I use a different method of calculation.

Hour of judgment = GT/42-months? According to the book of Revelation, an hour is a relatively short period of time, definitely not 42 months. [Rev. 3:3; 11:13; 14:7, 15; 17:12; 18:10, 17, 19]

Hour of judgment is about to start (Rev. 14:7). Next he discusses the fall of Babylon and the fate of those worshipping the beast. In v. 14, we read of the son of man and the great harvest which is Armageddon. I believe the GT would have run its course by then.

The following is the only mention of “hour of test” in the book of Revelation. The following assurance was given to the first century congregation of Philadelphia: “Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth.” (Rev. 3:7, 10)

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, tell me about the temple. What do you think this is?