Posts by Vidqun

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Earlier in this thread, I correctly pointed out that Daniel 9:27 does not say that Jerusalem would be destroyed. For completeness I will also add that although Daniel 9:26 says the city would be 'destroyed', the actual word used in the original text (Strongs H7843) means corrupted rather than destroyed in the sense of perished (Strongs H6), desolated (Strongs H2717), erased (Strongs H4871) or completely destroyed (Strongs H2763). See also Daniel 11:31; 12:11.

Evidence associated with the piel and hiphil as the predominant conjugation stems suggests that the verb signifies an act of ruthless destruction subjecting the object to complete annihilation or decimating and corrupting it so thoroughly that its demise is certain. The only difference is that the piel has resultative meaning, being used when the reference is to acts of destruction already carried out, whereas the hiphil emphasizes the subject’s intent to carry out such destruction, being used when the reference is to current or durative acts of this sort.
J. Conrad, “שָׁחַת,” in Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, ed. G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren, and Heinz-Josef Fabry, trans. Douglas W. Stott (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004), 584.

To destroy or not to destroy? No Jeffro, your clarification does not work for me. Jesus describes the occasion best. I'll go with his version on the matter. His explanation, of not a stone upon a stone remaining, describes it as it turned out in the end: "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." (Luke 21:6 ESV)

15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matt. 24:15-16 ESV)

He could even warn his people to flee, and they did.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Daniel and friends were exiled approximately 605 BCE, in the first siege of Jerusalem, during the reign of Jehoiakim. He started documenting their adventures in Babylon soon after that. And no, it's not magical, it's called divine prophecy.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Maccabean victory indeed! Now that's a long shot.

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure." (Dan. 2:44, 45 ESV)

Jeffro, you must be joking. Is that really what you believe? You apply above language to a Maccabean victory? Now I've heard it all. The Maccabean Dynasty lost their independance by submitting to General Pompey in 63 BCE. Note what Daniel prophesied in connection with them: "In those times many shall rise against the king of the south, and the violent among your own people shall lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they shall fail." (Dan. 11:14 ESV)

Their vision did indeed fail. No, the interpretation of the statue and the four beasts correspond. And above arrangement is going to be a permanent arrangement. Nothing to do the Maccabees. But oh, yes, your kind, alongside Porphyry of old, don't believe in the predictive element of prophecy. Perhaps you shouldn't call it prophecy then, because that is what prophecy is all about.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Rabbinic Jewry was dead against Jesus and his followers. Interestingly they had a lot to say about Jesus in their Talmud. It's not flattering at all, but that should tell you something. His enemies never said that he did not exist. Actually they did confirm his existence by attacking him, his methods and followers. He was certainly a thorn in their flesh: "Scattered throughout the Talmud, the founding document of rabbinic Judaism in late antiquity, can be found quite a few references to Jesus—and they’re not flattering. The rabbis of the Talmud read, understood, and used the New Testament Jesus narrative to assert, ultimately, Judaism’s superiority over Christianity. The Talmudic stories make fun of Jesus’ birth from a virgin, fervently contest his claim to be the Messiah and Son of God, and maintain that he was rightfully executed as a blasphemer and idolater. They subvert the Christian idea of Jesus’ resurrection and insist he got the punishment he deserved in hell—and that a similar fate awaits his followers."

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Touchofgrey, no we are still on topic with the dating of Daniel and his "messiah." But here’s a few convincing occurrences and snippets of history. These did not fall out of thin air. Included also is a few places you can visit:

1. The place and nature of his birth.

2. The murderous nature of Herod.

3. The synagogue where Jesus taught in his adopted hometown—Capernaum.

4. Peter’s house in Capernaum.

5. The pool of Bethesda.

6. The pool of Siloam.

7. The nature of the town of Bethany where Jesus raised Lazarus—Leper colony, “the place of Lazarus”, tomb that matches John 11:38.

8. The temple place of the trumpeting.

9. The Caiaphas ossuary (also the Miriam Ossuary—granddaughter of Caiaphas)

10. The James ossuary.

11. The miracles of Jesus—he’s admitted as a miracle worker even by non-Christian sources.

12. The fearful nature of Pilate—Why was Pilate afraid of upsetting the Jews? Archaeological evidence of Pilate includes coins, a ring, an inscription, and ancient writers).

13. The nature and place of burial and resurrection: Tomb of the Shroud (nature of the burial), Church of the Holy Sepulcher, place of the burial and resurrection

14. Nazareth inscription.

15. The murderous nature of Herod Agrippa I.

16. The early spread of Christianity and the belief in the Resurrection.

17. The graffiti found in Rome.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

But then the appointed king would replace them as supreme authority, as you say. That's where we are now. The Israelite priesthood is history. After Jesus' death and resurrection their temple sacrifices also mean nothing. Jesus is a priest according to Melchizedek. He will become king of the Messianic kingdom in the near future, therefore qualifying as the Messiah. Some of God's people will also be anointed, but none qualify as the Messiah.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

מָשִׁ֖יחַ Anointed, anointed one (ASV and RSV similar). This word used as adjective and noun occurs about forty times in the OT, primarily in 1-2 Sam and Ps. While it may designate an office such as the high priest (Lev 4:3), מָשִׁ֖יחַ is almost exclusively reserved as a synonym for "king" (melek, q.v.) as in poetry where it is in parallel position with king (1 Sam 2:10; 2 Sam 22:51; cf. Psa 2:2; Psa 18:50) (TWOT). Striking are the phrases "the Lord's anointed" or equivalents such as "his anointed" referring to kings (HALOT). The word messiah almost always refers to the king. The fact that the High Priest is sprinkled with olive oil doesn't make him a messiah.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Interesting interpretation, but no cigar. Problem is, neither Jerusalem nor the temple were destroyed by Antiochus III Epiphanes. He profaned it but never destroyed it. And since when is the High Priest referred to as "an anointed one." Don't they use such a phrase in the anointing of a king? And the fact that the Aramaic used in Daniel is what is called Reichsaramaisch or Official Aramaic, originating from Babylon. How on earth would a Maccabean Jew master this ancient diplomatic language?

And funnily enough, no mention is made in the book of Antiochus' Hellenization program. What is mentioned is a prophecy, indicating the uprising and demise of the Maccabees, again quite accurate: "In those times many shall rise against the king of the south, and the violent among your own people shall lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they shall fail." (Dan. 11:14 ESV).

Then I see you did touch on Nebuchadnezzar as the golden head of the statue. Why don't you continue and explain to us the relevance of the different metal layers of the statue? The same goes for the four beasts of Dan. 7. You'll see in connection with these your Maccabean dating falls seriously short.

Contemporary scholars refer to the contents of Daniel as quasi-prophecy, by they almost always revert back to the prophecies of Daniel, the quasi- falling by the wayside. Daniel was also a contemporary of Ezekiel and is mentioned by him. Perhaps you should also put a Maccabean dating on the book of Ezekiel.

The "botched Christian reinterpretation" is right on the money. Jesus started his ministry in the 69th week (7 years + 62 years). At half the week he was cut off. After his death and resurrection, the temple sacrifices would be worthless and cancelled out. He would continue the Old Covenant for Jew and Samaritan for a full week, i.e., seven years. Afterwards the Gentiles, Cornelius and family being the first, would be invited to join the Christian congregation. Actually it's brilliant!

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (Dan. 9:24-26 ESV)

The above is a firm favorite of mine. Note, it describes the fate of Jerusalem. No matter whether you appoint an early or late date to the authorship of Daniel, it happened just like that. It also discusses "an anointed one," the Messiah, to be cut off with nothing for himself. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Then it discusses the destruction of the city: "And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator" (Dan. 9:27 ESV).

This coincides with the Roman invasion and the destruction of the city and temple, whereas the Roman Empire will receive its just deserts in due course. If you work on the chronology of seventy sevens since the reconstruction of Jerusalem, you come up with (70 x 7) = 490 years, the time Jesus are supposed to enter Jerusalem. What a coincidence!

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Well, I personally would not put my life on the line for a fable or hearsay. But as usual, in this line of conversation we have to get back to prophecy. Some wonderful imaginary predictions and prophecies, especially about Jesus, uttered thousands of years before, coming true. What are the odds! Amazing guesswork!