Posts by Vidqun

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Sea beast

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

Above are the actions of the sea beast. The rest is your mental construct of events. As previously discussed, the sea beast has 42 months to carry out the instructions of the Dragon, Satan the Devil (Rev. 13:5). Then beast from the earth comes on the scene (13:11). It exercises all the authority of the sea beast (13:12). Afterwards the sea beast disappears and an image is erected in its honor by beast from the earth (13:14). Beast from the earth is also allowed to give breath to the image, so the image becomes a beast in its own right (13:15). This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20). This construction of events follows the natural Revelation chronology (chapter 13 > chapter 17 > chapter 19). I will stick to these.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Yes, I can see now where you come from. First of all, the origin, appearance and activities of the two beasts differ. Definitely not the same beast:

1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. (Rev. 13:1-3 ESV)

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit... (Rev. 17:3, 8 ESV)

The latter beast does not receive a deathstroke. It's heads are intact. When the sea beast receives a mortal wound, it doesn't die, but recovers. So, "is not" does not fit this beast. "Is not," means it disappears from the scene, i.e., it died. How do we know it died? That's the place where Jesus found himself when he died (Romans 10:7; cf Ps. 106:26). As the NAB puts it: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer, and yet it will come again” (Rev 17:8a). Here it is "about to come up from the abyss." Next time it does come up from the abyss and goes into action, battling the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7, 8). This beast is identified as the 8th king (17:11).

Last, but not least, all the days, times and weeks found in the books of Daniel and Revelation are connected to a half or full Heptad. Time, times and half a time = half heptad = 42 months = 1,260 days. Each time these are mentioned, it means unfinished business (Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Duran, and that's my point. I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period. Also you confuse the 8th king, "the beast that was and is not," i.e., beast from the abyss (17:8, 11) with beast from the sea (13:1, 2). The beasts take over rulership of the world. However, God has handed over judgment to His Son, not the 8th king. God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king. Nothing to do with judgment. Jesus is the one to separate the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31, 32).

Vanderhoven, I guess I'm a Partial Preterist, going up to Rev. 4:1 (cf. 1:19). From then on I am a Futurist all the way. I also subscribe to a late date for Revelation, one of the reasons being that John was exiled to Patmos. This was a favorite pastime of Domitian (81-96 CE), banishing Christian folk to Patmos. Nero killed Christians outright. Also the fact the earthly Jerusalem was not important anymore, being replaced by "heavenly Jerusalem" (cf. Hebr. 12:22), IMO would contribute to a post-70 CE date.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Duran, I cannot agree with your mixing and matching the scriptures of Revelation. I see the history of God's people during the tribulation somewhat differently. For me the beasts represent governing entities, same as in Daniel.

10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. (Rev. 17:10-13 ESV)

And for the life of me I cannot discover the "judgement" of the 8th king. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the scripture you are referring to. I am more interested in God's judgment against His enemies, e.g., the beasts and Babylon the Great (cf. Rev. 17:14; 19:20). In any case, Babylon is devastated by the horns, i.e., the ten kings (17:12, 16). God will judge the remainder of Satan's cohorts by means of His Son, not the 8th king (19:11-13). I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed (19:15).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, very interesting way at looking at things, very similar to the way the Witnesses interpret the Bible, especially Revelation. What would it be called, historicist interpretation? You view Biblical prophecy as a history lesson albeit imperfect, written up after the fact. Unfortunately, I am a dedicated futurist and it would be next to impossible for me to think along those lines. I see the Bible as the product of the Creator of the universe. The Scriptures inform us of judgment to come. As such He would have provided us with a roadmap, from beginning to the end: “remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’” (Isa. 46:9, 10 ESV).

So when can we expect His judgment to commence? Luke tells us: "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Luke 21:25, 26 ESV)

To that end, I do see dual application of prophecies, which is actually clearly set out in Scripture. For example, dual implementation is indicated when one encounters the phrase “Day of the LORD” (or “Day of Jehovah”) incorporated in the text. The primary fulfillment of the passage is usually localized and time dependent, often taking place in the time of the prophet. But when above phrase crops up, it frequently refers to the ultimate “Day of the LORD,” marking the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:3 ESV). Whenever the Hebrew noun for “land” (Hebr. ארֶֶ֫ץ) is present, the alternative translation is “earth,” which indicates a universal judgment. Earth in such a case would refer to its human inhabitants (cf. Gen. 11:1). This would then point to a secondary fulfillment. E.g., Is. 2:12, 17, 21; 13:9, 11; 34:1-4; Jer. 25:29-33; Obadiah 1:15. Cf. Rev. 6:12-21; 14:19, 20; 19:19-21.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, let's stick to the Gospel of Matthew. Do you mean to tell me, these are happenings of the first century?

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 ESV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, the following passages have not been fulfilled in the first century. Note Joel and Acts mention the Day of the LORD, which is certainly future: "And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day." (Acts 2:19, 20 ESV)

"When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." (Rev. 6:12-14 ESV)

In addition, I see in various passages, directly or indirectly referring to the “great tribulation” and connected events (cf. Is. 2:10, 19, 21; 13:10, 11; Amos 8:9, 11, 12; Hag. 2:6; Hebr. 12:26-29). In addition, nearly two thirds of the book of Joel describes tribulation parallels (Joel, chapter 1&2). Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises of information about the “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:15-28). Nearly a third of the book of Revelation (chapters 6-9, 11, 15, 16) deals exclusively with tribulation related developments. And as will be seen, prophetic chronology of both Daniel and Revelation points to important facets of the tribulation period (Dan. 8:11-14, 25; 12:1, 7, 11, 12; Rev. 11:2, 3).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Perhaps you all are underestimating the the intelligence of first century Christians in Jerusalem. If one reads the following, what conclusion should you reach?

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

If I was in Jerusalem and I read that, I would get the hell out of Dodge. It would be the most natural thing to do.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Raymond, I’m with you. Eusebius was a respected Church historian. Why would he lie?

such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now (Matt. 24:21 ESV)
as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now (Mark 13:19 ESV)

Vanderhoven, I find it hard to fit above words to the siege of Jerusalem. Since the beginning of the world we have seen the destruction of the dinosaurs, the flood, Pompei and many more major catastrophes. According to Zionist propaganda the Jews have lost over 6 million in the holocaust. I do find it ironic that theologians, zealous to preach and teach, then have the temerity to chop and change meanings of words and sentences to fit their theology.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, you jiggle the vocabulary just like the Watchtower. I cannot see how you reach the conclusion that Jesus is talking about a localized tribulation in the Middle East: "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matt. 24:21, 22; Mark 13:19, 20; cf. Dan. 12:1). Is Jesus lying or embellishing and overstating the facts?

Not all of us have mountains close by to flee to. Perhaps the mountains are figurative. The prophet Zechariah mentions some figurative mountains to flee to: “And Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his warring, in the day of fight. And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to the north, and half of it to the south. And YOU people will certainly flee to the valley of my mountains; because the valley of [the] mountains will reach all the way to Azel. And YOU will have to flee, just as YOU fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah.” (Zech. 14:3-7).

Same goes for Isaiah and Micah: "And many peoples will certainly go and say, Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem." (Isa. 2:2, 3; cf. Mic. 4:1, 2)