Posts by Vidqun

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

HereIam60, I'm not sure what they taught originally. I have lost track of Watchtower interpretation. Perhaps Duran knows.

Duran (I now know where you got your moniker from), I think I have identified your problem, why you want to sea the sea beast in Rev. 19. It boils down to the following:

1) "And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast" (Rev. 13:14 NWT)

"and, by the signs he was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast" (Rev. 13:14 NET)

"the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs" (Rev. 19:20 NWT)

"the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf–" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

So which is it, "in sight of" or "on behalf of"? General consensus of the Dictionaries and Lexicons indicate the latter:

by the authority of, on behalf of Rv 13:12, 14; 19:20. Also simply by Lk 3:7 D (but s. 2a).—Johannessohn, Präpositionen 194-97; 359-61; AWikenhauser, Ἐνώπιος--ἐνώπιον--κατενώπιον: BZ 8, 1910, 263-70.—DELG s.v. ἐνῶπα. M-M. (BDAG).

by the authority of, on behalf of (RV 13.12, 14; 19.20) (Friberg).

at the instance of anyone, by his power and authority: Rev. 13:12,14; 19:20 (Thayer).

In Rev 13:12, 14; 19:20 ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου ποιεῖν τι, do something "in the presence of the beast," is to be understood as "at the commissioning of the beast." (EDNT).

2) "and, by the signs he was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast" (Rev. 13:14 NET)

"the false prophet who had performed the signs" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

What signs?

13:14 = "even making fire come down from heaven" and "he deceived those who live on the earth" (Rev. 13:13, 14 NET)

19:20 = "which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

Conclusion: The mark of the beast was introduced in the time of the new beast, and the new beast IMO is the scarlet beast (beast from the abyss).

That's enough for the time being. I will answer above questions later.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

I do love music, but I do believe there’s a time and place for it. Even if you are inspired by it, why do you insist on sharing it? Back to the business at hand:

So, the question here is, what/where in Rev is the GT that they come out of?

I have created a little schema to explain my view. I got my inspiration from Daniel. I think we went over this before. Repetition for emphasis. Here I assume trumpet blast and plague are the same length, which might not necessarily be the case.

Do you agree that the GT period that they come out of is Rev 13:5,7,10?

No, this is where we differ. IMO this has happened already.

And that during that time is when the choice has to be made to either worship God or the beast? (Rev 14:6,7,9-12)

You can make that choice even now.

Then after that period the following takes place?
Rev 19:19-21;20:4;7:9,13,14

Yes, I believe this to take place after the tribulation.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

I noticed it before. Why do you feel the urge to conclude your scriptural thoughts with a music video? Do you think it contributes to the discussion? How? A musical interlude (The Cult - Fire Woman, no less!) for emphasis? I think that is totally irreverant and unhinged!

It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast

Who is perfoming the signs, beast from the earth or the sea beast?

As a reminder: All Scripture is inspired and beneficial. Ring a bell? Is there a reason why you are stuck on Revelation only? I thought the following would be obvious to all those reading the Bible. So let's go:

What Scriptures can you cite to show that your scarlet/8th king will persecute God's people?

And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally. (Dan. 7:25, 26 NWT)

It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish. (Dan. 12:7 NWT)

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17 ESV)

What Scriptures can you cite that will bring about these two groups?

16 At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.

18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him. (Mal. 3:16, 18 NWT)

For God: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." (Rev. 7:3 ESV)

Against: "For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev. 16:14 ESV)

What Scriptures can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands" (Rev. 7:9 ESV)

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Rev. 21:3 ESV)

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss (Rev. 17:8 NET)

the beast that comes up from the abyss (Rev. 11:7 NET)

Frederick Franz clung to the idea that beast coming up from the abyss (Rev. 11:7) in this one instance is the same as the sea beast (13:1). This he did "to prove" his theory that the two witnesses represent Rutherford and co. that were sent to jail during the First World War. As will be seen, he falls back to the Hebrew. Later on he declared the beast "about to come up from the abyss" (17:8) to be the UN.

The “abyss” (Greek abyssos; Hebrew, tehohm’) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. (Ps. 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” Thus “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with “the wild beast ascending out of the sea.” See Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand!, p. 167.

NWT Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

NET Revelation 13:3 One of the beast's heads appeared to have been killed, but the lethal wound had been healed. And the whole world followed the beast in amazement

"a head that seemed to be mortally wounded" Rev. 13:3 (BDAG). This beast remained alive. It was not in the abyss. By disappearing, it would be absorbed by the two new beasts, i.e., beast from the earth and beast from the abyss. I know it disappeared because Jesus deals with only two (not three) beasts at Armageddon.

In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. The abyss can be favorably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). God allows the beast to come up out of the abyss (of inactivity) (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). This is also where Satan will be bound for a thousand years (20:1, 2).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Sea beast

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

Above are the actions of the sea beast. The rest is your mental construct of events. As previously discussed, the sea beast has 42 months to carry out the instructions of the Dragon, Satan the Devil (Rev. 13:5). Then beast from the earth comes on the scene (13:11). It exercises all the authority of the sea beast (13:12). Afterwards the sea beast disappears and an image is erected in its honor by beast from the earth (13:14). Beast from the earth is also allowed to give breath to the image, so the image becomes a beast in its own right (13:15). This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20). This construction of events follows the natural Revelation chronology (chapter 13 > chapter 17 > chapter 19). I will stick to these.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Yes, I can see now where you come from. First of all, the origin, appearance and activities of the two beasts differ. Definitely not the same beast:

1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. (Rev. 13:1-3 ESV)

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit... (Rev. 17:3, 8 ESV)

The latter beast does not receive a deathstroke. It's heads are intact. When the sea beast receives a mortal wound, it doesn't die, but recovers. So, "is not" does not fit this beast. "Is not," means it disappears from the scene, i.e., it died. How do we know it died? That's the place where Jesus found himself when he died (Romans 10:7; cf Ps. 106:26). As the NAB puts it: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer, and yet it will come again” (Rev 17:8a). Here it is "about to come up from the abyss." Next time it does come up from the abyss and goes into action, battling the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7, 8). This beast is identified as the 8th king (17:11).

Last, but not least, all the days, times and weeks found in the books of Daniel and Revelation are connected to a half or full Heptad. Time, times and half a time = half heptad = 42 months = 1,260 days. Each time these are mentioned, it means unfinished business (Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Duran, and that's my point. I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period. Also you confuse the 8th king, "the beast that was and is not," i.e., beast from the abyss (17:8, 11) with beast from the sea (13:1, 2). The beasts take over rulership of the world. However, God has handed over judgment to His Son, not the 8th king. God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king. Nothing to do with judgment. Jesus is the one to separate the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31, 32).

Vanderhoven, I guess I'm a Partial Preterist, going up to Rev. 4:1 (cf. 1:19). From then on I am a Futurist all the way. I also subscribe to a late date for Revelation, one of the reasons being that John was exiled to Patmos. This was a favorite pastime of Domitian (81-96 CE), banishing Christian folk to Patmos. Nero killed Christians outright. Also the fact the earthly Jerusalem was not important anymore, being replaced by "heavenly Jerusalem" (cf. Hebr. 12:22), IMO would contribute to a post-70 CE date.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Duran, I cannot agree with your mixing and matching the scriptures of Revelation. I see the history of God's people during the tribulation somewhat differently. For me the beasts represent governing entities, same as in Daniel.

10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. (Rev. 17:10-13 ESV)

And for the life of me I cannot discover the "judgement" of the 8th king. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the scripture you are referring to. I am more interested in God's judgment against His enemies, e.g., the beasts and Babylon the Great (cf. Rev. 17:14; 19:20). In any case, Babylon is devastated by the horns, i.e., the ten kings (17:12, 16). God will judge the remainder of Satan's cohorts by means of His Son, not the 8th king (19:11-13). I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed (19:15).

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, very interesting way at looking at things, very similar to the way the Witnesses interpret the Bible, especially Revelation. What would it be called, historicist interpretation? You view Biblical prophecy as a history lesson albeit imperfect, written up after the fact. Unfortunately, I am a dedicated futurist and it would be next to impossible for me to think along those lines. I see the Bible as the product of the Creator of the universe. The Scriptures inform us of judgment to come. As such He would have provided us with a roadmap, from beginning to the end: “remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’” (Isa. 46:9, 10 ESV).

So when can we expect His judgment to commence? Luke tells us: "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Luke 21:25, 26 ESV)

To that end, I do see dual application of prophecies, which is actually clearly set out in Scripture. For example, dual implementation is indicated when one encounters the phrase “Day of the LORD” (or “Day of Jehovah”) incorporated in the text. The primary fulfillment of the passage is usually localized and time dependent, often taking place in the time of the prophet. But when above phrase crops up, it frequently refers to the ultimate “Day of the LORD,” marking the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:3 ESV). Whenever the Hebrew noun for “land” (Hebr. ארֶֶ֫ץ) is present, the alternative translation is “earth,” which indicates a universal judgment. Earth in such a case would refer to its human inhabitants (cf. Gen. 11:1). This would then point to a secondary fulfillment. E.g., Is. 2:12, 17, 21; 13:9, 11; 34:1-4; Jer. 25:29-33; Obadiah 1:15. Cf. Rev. 6:12-21; 14:19, 20; 19:19-21.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, let's stick to the Gospel of Matthew. Do you mean to tell me, these are happenings of the first century?

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 ESV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)