Posts by Vidqun

AK - Jeff, I was very surprised when I found out that animals have thirteen pairs of ribs, and humans only twelve pairs. Doesn't say much, but it makes you think, doesn't it?

When the human pair went rogue, big problems set in. They wanted to be independent, so God had to step aside. He knew of the coming complications, therefore made arrangements for it to be fixed. Hopefully we can put this one to bed now.

A few years there was an article on mitochondrial RNA in Time Magazine. The heading went something like this: "In search of Eve." Mitochondrial RNA can only be passed on to her offspring by the woman. After studying mitochondrial RNA deviation in humans, the scientists concluded "we are not as old as we thought," because they found much less deviation than expected. So, perhaps, with your question, you are putting God on the stand. You never know, you might just get an answer.

Knowsnothing, agreed. Definitely room there for exploration.

Twitch, the question is: Evolution or adaption? The animal might have grown a new coat (adaption) but he did not change his genus (evolution). Perhaps you are referring to an interesting concept called Occam's razor. According to Webster:

a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

I go for the simple explanation until disproved. By the way, banana's are very healthy, that is if you eat them.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

Thanks Tammy and BTS for your input. At this point I am still formulating a (new) belief system and every bit helps, yes even the negative criticism. I am open to constructive criticism. If I find that I am wrong, I will definitely change my tune, be assured of that. At this point in time I am only interested in the (real) truth of the matter, not the canned version of the Watchtower.

S&R and Cofty, we agree to disagree. S&R, you did ask that I backup my arguments by means of a reputable source. Another thing. Just to clear up a point. I did not mean the perfect immune system will prevent all types of cancer. Sorry if it came over that way. What I meant was that cancer has to do with damage, genetic deterioration as well as old age. That's why I mentioned the causes of genetic damage. When youngsters or babies contract cancer, it would mean that genetic deterioration or damage had set at a much earlier time.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

S&R, it's called a B. (Baccalaureus), Med. (Medicinae), Sc. (Scientiae) = B. Med. Sc. Like I said, that was a while ago. How is it that I suddenly have all this medical knowledge? Now that we are discussing the different topics, things are coming back to me. The brain is a wonderful thing. Yes, in Anatomy III we did a lot of skull and brain cavity measuring, but that doesn't tell you much, I'm afraid. It doesn't prove a thing.

Cofty, you will not be able to understand the "spirit" part. You are either a "fleshly man" or "a spiritual man." Paul, in 2 Cor. 3:1-3, explained it this way:

And so, brothers, I was not able to speak to YOU as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to babes in Christ.

2 I fed YOU milk, not something to eat, for YOU were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are YOU strong enough now,

3 for YOU are yet fleshly. For whereas there are jealousy and strife among YOU, are YOU not fleshly and are YOU not walking as men do?

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

Well, Yan, I believe in a perfect world there will be no cancer. Things have gone horribly wrong. I don't think God intended it to go this way. Rom. 8:22 says: "For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain until now." Hopefully things will change in near future. In a previous post I did mention that animals do not enjoy the prospect of everlasting life, so I am not sure what the position with them would be. And I did add, I thought that was unfair, but my opinion doesn't count. I don't make the rules.

For you S&R, again from Wiki. Notice none of these mutations, good or bad, resulted in a new genus:

Harmful mutations: Changes in DNA caused by mutation can cause errors in protein sequence, creating partially or completely non-functional proteins. To function correctly, each cell depends on thousands of proteins to function in the right places at the right times. When a mutation alters a protein that plays a critical role in the body, a medical condition can result. A condition caused by mutations in one or more genes is called a genetic disorder. Some mutations alter a gene's DNA base sequence but do not change the function of the protein made by the gene. Studies of the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation does change a protein, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial. [ 34 ] However, studies in yeast have shown that only 7% of mutations that are not in genes are harmful. [ 35 ]

If a mutation is present in a germ cell, it can give rise to offspring that carries the mutation in all of its cells. This is the case in hereditary diseases. On the other hand, a mutation may occur in a somatic cell of an organism. Such mutations will be present in all descendants of this cell within the same organism, and certain mutations can cause the cell to become malignant, and thus cause cancer. [ 36 ]

Often, gene mutations that could cause a genetic disorder are repaired by the DNA repair system of the cell. Each cell has a number of pathways through which enzymes recognize and repair mistakes in DNA. Because DNA can be damaged or mutated in many ways, the process of DNA repair is an important way in which the body protects itself from disease.

Beneficial mutations: Although mutations that change in protein sequences can be harmful to an organism; on occasions, the effect may be positive in a given environment. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.

For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. [ 37 ] The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. [ 38 ] This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague. [ 39 ]

Another example is Sickle cell disease, a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, [ 40 ] because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). [ 41 ] Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

TD, yes I believe you're right, cell membrane, skin, mucous, tears and sputum (also the HCL in your stomach) are part of the protective barrier, preventing pathogens from breaching the perimeter. As you are born the program of your immune system is "a clean slate" in a manner of speaking. Gradually you are introduced to antigens, and your immune system becomes trained to recognize more and more antigens. The innoculations, when young, is a part of this "training" process.

The blood fractions, or Immunoglobulins (Ig), so on topic on this board, is part of the immune respons. E.g., IgE has to do with our allergic response. Some of these can move through the placenta, from mother to baby, and can cause problems when the baby is born. Very few can penetrate the blood-brain barrier. Some can move from the blood into the tissues. IgM comes from the B-lymphocytes and latches on to antigens. T-lymphocytes are then dispatched. Some of these are memory cells, to remember previous infections. Then there is the Natural killer cells or T-cells, sent to "blow" up the invader.

Anonymous, here I am with tec Tammy. I believe there is a difference between evolution (into a new species) and adaptation (adapting to new circumstances, however remaining part of the same species). Most living things adapt to new circumstances. Now with global warming, we'll see a lot of that. Another good example is hospital infections caused by super bugs, resistant to most antibiotics, causing immense problems in the hospital environment, e.g. methicillin resistant S. aureus, Pseudomonas, Klebsiella, etc. By the way, these are our creation, because doctors start the patient off with advanced antibiotics, and when the organism becomes resistant, the options soon run out. These change, but remain part of their original genus.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

Microbiology III, Physiology II, Anatomy III. Work it out for yourself.

Very interesting. You discuss viruses and then you say "no immune involvement". Take note, your immune system has been designed to protect you form them. E.g. AIDS. Because the virus takes out your B-lymphocytes, it effectively paralyzes your immune system. The following has been taken from Wikipedia:

The symptoms of AIDS are primarily the result of conditions that do not normally develop in individuals with healthy immune systems. Most of these conditions are infections caused by bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites that are normally controlled by the elements of the immune system that HIV damages.

The virus, entering through which ever route, acts primarily on the following cells: [ 74 ]

Lymphoreticular system:
- CD 4 + T-Helper cells
- Macrophages
- Monocytes
- B-lymphocytes
Certain endothelial cells
Central nervous system:
- Microglia of the nervous system
- Astrocytes
- Oligodendrocytes
- Neurones – indirectly by the action of cytokines and the gp-120

Quite a bit of new formation here. It demonstrates my argument well. A healthy immune system can protect you against commensals as well as pathogens. However, a compromised immune system is susceptible to viruses, bacteria, fungi, and parasites.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

Cofty, ever been to the Natural Science Museum in London? Next to it they were constructing the Darwin Centre. Think they probably finished by now. I spent quite a bit of time in this museum, not too long ago. I was not swayed by the arguments that were presented there.

So, if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't say anything. I am sorry for your pain. I really feel for you. And what do they say: Ignorance is bliss. But I'd rather be ignorant than arrogant. If you convice me otherwise, you have a hearing ear. But with insults you're not going to get very far. Take my word for it.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

S&R, you are very clever indeed. Why don't you tell us simpletons how viruses work. How do they replicate? Do try to explain in simple words, so that we all can understand. Then bring in the immune system, please, seeing your the expert. Feel free to quote the experts. No, don't sigh. As I said before. View it as revision and teaching. One's never too old to learn. I like your P.S. a very mature way of concluding your presentation, or is the heat getting to you?

I am sure you have some spectacular books on evolution. If you study and accept their theories, you are just as gullible as I am, believing in God. Glad you brought up apes turning into men. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? With your knowledge of genetics you should know better. And the eye, we started with one eye, then a mutation happened with two eyes. That one survived. The ones with the single eye did not survive, because they could not see the predators coming. Now that's what I call silly. Let's not go there.

148

Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

one thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.

one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?

of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.

Vidqun

Cofty, my favorite saying is: Time will tell. You read the article on the 'Armageddon virus' and see what Medical Science has up its sleeve. Ten Monkeys not that far into our future after all. But let's hope you're right. Let's hope man's stupidity is not his downfall.

I don't understand what you mean by the "smug cynic" part. If you are dying of cancer, and there's nothing they can do, I think it's unethical treating a dying patient with incredibly expensive drugs, even if there is no hope.