Wonderful news! Wish you the best. In three weeks time starts the first day of the rest of your life. And initially it might be a shock to the system. In school (and in the congregation) you are spoon-fed, but now you will will have to start eating all by yourself. May it turn into a feeding frenzy, with you enjoying it all the way.
Posts by Vidqun
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23Starting University in 3 weeks...
by MsGrowingGirl20 ini'm very excited!
you all helped me to make this decision and stick to it and i thank you all.
eve though my life(spiritual) hasn't been sorted yet...i'm really looking forward to this!
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82
Is the Governing Body EVIL or IGNORANT?
by cedars insome of you will have noticed that i've been paying a lot of attention to the governing body recently.
this is because most jehovah's witnesses venerate them collectively (even if they can't name them individually), and i feel this makes it important to understand this group of men properly and expose their mindset as individuals.
as the saying goes, i feel it's important to "know your enemy".. i realize it's very convenient to think of the governing body as being "evil" when we consider that they are ultimately responsible for all the damaging jw teachings and beliefs.
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Vidqun
Another reason: Why is it that the NWT has not had a revision since 1984? Because Fred Franze is dead and there is no other qualified for such a job. Dealing with the Bible all the time, one would think that they, or those under them, would be encouraged to study the original languages of the Bible.
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82
Is the Governing Body EVIL or IGNORANT?
by cedars insome of you will have noticed that i've been paying a lot of attention to the governing body recently.
this is because most jehovah's witnesses venerate them collectively (even if they can't name them individually), and i feel this makes it important to understand this group of men properly and expose their mindset as individuals.
as the saying goes, i feel it's important to "know your enemy".. i realize it's very convenient to think of the governing body as being "evil" when we consider that they are ultimately responsible for all the damaging jw teachings and beliefs.
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Vidqun
I listen to what they have to say. They discourage secular education. Call it primitive thinking if you like. Definitely no rocket scientist amongst them. Fred France would have been the exception.
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Is the Governing Body EVIL or IGNORANT?
by cedars insome of you will have noticed that i've been paying a lot of attention to the governing body recently.
this is because most jehovah's witnesses venerate them collectively (even if they can't name them individually), and i feel this makes it important to understand this group of men properly and expose their mindset as individuals.
as the saying goes, i feel it's important to "know your enemy".. i realize it's very convenient to think of the governing body as being "evil" when we consider that they are ultimately responsible for all the damaging jw teachings and beliefs.
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Vidqun
The question should be: Weak or wicked? The Bible takes a dim view on the latter. The GB as a collective is a product of their own making. They are intellectually stunted, because that's how they like it. No, they cannot be excused. Each of them has a brain, better than any man-made computer. The fact that they preferred not to develop it, is unpardonable. They will be judged adversely for that. That's why their organization is going down the tube, it's like a stagnant pond, where everything rots, producing a great deal of methane (hot air?). Could one compare them to the leadership of the Nazis? Those that did survive the war, were not excused. A favorite excuse: "I merely followed orders." And does the Bible not say that the teachers are going to receive a "heavier judgment." No, their actions and decisions cannot be excused by God or man.
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15
Daniel 8:20,21 - what do secular authorities say?
by konceptual99 ini am looking for anything that suggests there is a rational explaination for daniel apparently predicting the rise of greece as a world power.
there is some stuff online suggesting that scholars years ago thought it was modified over time but evidence points to it having been written in the 6th centuary bc and they have been forced to correct their view.. is there anything anywhere that presents the accepted secular view of this passage?.
cheers.
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Vidqun
First of all, I have to make something clear. I am firmly committed to the authority of Scripture as divine revelation. I also believe the book of Daniel to be viewed as a unitary structure and should be studied as such (I do admit that a measure of editing has gone into the book). On this basis I study the book.
When it comes to prophecy: 1) It should agree with context and fit in with rest of Bible. 2) It should be true according to the principle in Deuteronomy (18:22). 3) It could have more than one fulfillment as demonstrated by Jesus. By the way, he rejected the Maccabean interpretation of Daniel.
I differ those rejecting the predictive element of prophecy while emphasizing probability. For one, modern scholars ignore the internal evidence. Here’s a few examples.
Daniel is first and foremost a book of prophecy. It concerns the future. This we see from the arrangement of the contents. One quarter describes happenings in the life of Daniel and his friends. Three quarters contain prophecy.
This we also determine from the book itself. Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar: “However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what is to occur in the final part [’acharith] of the days” [“the latter days”, KJV] (Dan. 2:28). [1]
Later the angel Gabriel informs Daniel: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end” [“the end time”, NAB] (Dan. 8:17b). [2] He continues: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part [’acharith] of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end”. The “final part of the denunciation” refers to God’s anger during “the time of the end” (cf. Dan. 8:19, 25).
The small horn or fierce king will rise “in the final part [’acharith] of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to completion” (cf. Dan. 8:23). Gabriel concludes: “And you, for your part, keep secret the vision, because it is for many days” [“it concerns the distant future”, NIV] (cf. Dan. 8:26b).
Concerning the final vision, the angel reveals: “And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part [’acharith] of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]” [“for the vision pertains to future days”, NET] (cf. Dan. 10:14). [Cursive script added.]
The final King of the North “will certainly prove successful until [the] denunciation will have come to a finish.” Again the “denunciation” here refers to God’s wrath, indicating that the final King of the North would from hereon remain the same, enjoying great success, until his destruction towards the close of “the time of the end” (cf. Dan. 11:36, 40, 45).
Secondly, they lose sight of the fact that the final vision (Dan. 10-12) starts with the Persian Empire and ends with the resurrection. Getting stuck with Antiochus IV Epiphanes is unrealistic, especially concerning Dan. 11:40-45. This would make Daniel a liar.
Leolaia has touched on it, but here is a prophecy that did come true. In sharp contrast to Maccabees, Daniel makes no direct mention of Hellenistic Reform. The angel in Daniel’s final vision would also doom a Jewish uprising, by saying: “And the sons of the robbers [“violent ones”, CSBO] belonging to your people will, for their part, be carried along to try making a vision come true; and they will have to stumble”, i.e., die [3] (cf. Dan. 11:14b).
This is what a conservative scholar had to say about current research. I agree with him:
The vast body of literature on the prophets has shown them to be first of all religious spokesmen in their own world and to their own times. That view is certainly correct, but not to the exclusion of their theological relevance for the future of Israel and the world. Unfortunately modern critical methodology has not consistenly set the stage for greater confidence in the integrity of the biblical prophets and the authenticity of their oracles and writings. The ongoing and asymmetric editing of the prophetic meterials in the biblical period, as suggested by some modern approaches to this literature, is at best hypothetical. Much remains to be discovered about the literary process, and that inquiry must take place not only in a literary context but in a theological one as well. [4]
[1] This eschatological marker often occurs in the prophetic books of the Bible, corresponding to a new era in human history (cf. Is. 2:2; Jer. 23:20; 30:24; 48:47; 49:39; Dan. 12:13; Hosea 3:5; Mic. 4:1; cf. Ezek. 38:8).
[2] This eschatological marker occurs six times in the book of Daniel. Only the prophet Daniel would use it (cf. Dan. 8:17 , 19; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9) .
[3] The Hebrew word for stumble is kâshal (= “to cause to fall”). Especially in the book of Daniel this verb refers to a literal stumbling because of war (cf. Dan. 11:33b). In most cases the Syriac interprets it as “to overthrow.” This fact is corroborated by HALOT: to fall, collapse (of a government, dynasty) Dan. 11:14, 19, 33, 35, 41. In each of these cases, the verb refers to people, not countries. The Maccabean dynasty, and all break-away groups, disobedient to God, would come to a violent end.
[4] C. Hassell Bullock, An Introduction to the Old Testament Prophetic Books, Mooody Publishers (2007), p. 33.
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I think the Society might drop its appeal over the Conti case
by cedars ini've been giving some thought to the recent development in which the judge has ruled that the society is barred from completing any property transactions until the appeal is over, which could take up to two years or even more.. i've submitted an article to randy at freeminds in which i basically argue that it is no longer in the society's interests to appeal this case.
if i correctly understand the restrictions placed on the society by the judge, then the governing body has far more to lose by appealing than they could conceivably gain.. think about it.... by appealing, they buy themselves time in which to formulate a long-term strategy for dealing with the fallout of this case, but will be barred from liquidating $1 billion in property assets at a time of global economic uncertainty when their donations are dwindling.
there is also no guarantee that their appeal will be upheld.by dropping their appeal, they take a hit and pay $23.8 million but retain the freedom to see through their real estate projects; retain their financial flexibility to respond to dwindling donations, and get to pretend to their followers (as with the un scandal) that it never happened.of course, i am only saying that dropping the appeal would be the only intelligent option for the society, assuming they are aware of how legally precarious their child abuse policies are.
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Vidqun
If they do lose the appeal, it'll open the floodgates, and they'll want to avoid that, come hell or high water.
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When you were active, did you feel you would survive Armageddon?
by Band on the Run ini am curious about this issue.
personally, i never felt i would be good enough for a split second.
one would think that knowing you can not be good enough to survive would it make it easier to leave the witnesses and live for the present.
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Vidqun
No, never. Like the pie in the sky, it was just was too high (Pink Floyed if I'm not mistaken).
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The End of Biblical Studies?
by slimboyfat ina while ago i read a book called the end of biblical studies by evangelical turned sceptical academic hector avalos.
i thought it was really interesting perhaps because it mirrors some of the stages i went through as regards how i viewed the bible as i was leaving the witnesses.
at first i still believed the bible was inspired by god but learned to use different methods to interpret it than witness eisegesis.
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Vidqun
Keppler, the title then should have been Problems with Biblical Studies if he has a gripe about the way scholars study the Bible. But of course such a bland title creates no hype, so rather settle for one that will draw attention and sell his book. And your post proves my point. While such problems and discrepencies exist, there will always be students and scholars that will want to clear them up. While such interest in Biblical studies exist, The End of Biblical Studies is still very far away in the future. Archaeologists will continue digging, and so will Bible scholars and students. Even when scientific advances eclipse Bible studies, there will always be people interested in the past.
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The End of Biblical Studies?
by slimboyfat ina while ago i read a book called the end of biblical studies by evangelical turned sceptical academic hector avalos.
i thought it was really interesting perhaps because it mirrors some of the stages i went through as regards how i viewed the bible as i was leaving the witnesses.
at first i still believed the bible was inspired by god but learned to use different methods to interpret it than witness eisegesis.
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Vidqun
Over-simplification, I know, just like the title End of Biblical Studies is a HUGE over-simplification. So my post is in the spirit, and well within the boundaries, of the current thread. The quotes might be somewhat dated, but they do explain where I come from and what I believe. When Theological Seminaries close their doors, and Theology is not offered as a course in foremost universities and colleges, let me know, then we can re-examine the subject. Until such a time, I would call it wishful thinking. As I mentioned above, thousands of scholars and students will not agree with such an all encompassing statement. Perhaps Avalos is trying his hand at prophecy? Then time will tell whether such a statement is to stand or fall.
Textual basis: Here the Bible and its translations do exceptionally well, as the quotes suggest. In recent times the Bible has been examined as any other book. So far it has stood its ground rather well. Most objective scholars will attest to its value. Sorry to disappoint, but we do not have original works of any historical work. Does that mean we must shoot them all down because we do not have original autographs? Not a good argument at all.
Historical basis: The Bible contributes to the understanding of the origins of writing, language, translation, history and the development of religion. Archaeology of the Holy Land has confirmed a substantial portion of the written record. By visiting Palestine and surroundings, one can acquaint oneself with many landmarks mentioned in the Bible. And by just strolling through the British Museum, you will find many an artifact that could be connected to biblical figures and their neighbours (in the shop there's a whole book about it).
The figure of Jesus: Here one should read through the NT and decide for yourself what you want to believe. Those who ignore what Jesus taught will be poorer for it.
Impressive literature: Of all ancient writings, the Bible is unique. If there is anything to compare with it, I would love to hear of it.
Avalos certainly has a knife to grind: "Avalos argues that much of the poetry is repetitive, poorly constructed, grammatically problematic and ethically and aesthetically unsuccessful." I have not encountered a single Bible scholar with such a view. Granted, those with such a view, would not be studying the Bible anymore.
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The End of Biblical Studies?
by slimboyfat ina while ago i read a book called the end of biblical studies by evangelical turned sceptical academic hector avalos.
i thought it was really interesting perhaps because it mirrors some of the stages i went through as regards how i viewed the bible as i was leaving the witnesses.
at first i still believed the bible was inspired by god but learned to use different methods to interpret it than witness eisegesis.
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Vidqun
1) The Bible is the Big Truth. According to Bible Fundamentalists.
2) The Bible is Half Truth, Half Lie. According to most modern Bible Scholars.
3) The Bible is the Big Lie. According to atheists.
These are your choices. I believe in 1), as well as in cause and effect (where there is smoke there is fire). Here is a few good quotes of people in the know, having made a thorough study of the Bible and its manuscripts. And an archaeologist worth his salt, working in Palestine, will also study what the Bible has to say about a certain town, geographical location, etc.
End of Biblical Studies? I don't think so. Thousands and thousands are studying the Bible worldwide. I wonder why?
Rudolf Kittel, the first editor of Biblia Hebraica (BH), containing the Masoretic Text of the HAS, said: “Even so the Biblia Hebraica will remain subject to the saying, ‘One day instructs another’. May it find everywhere fair critics, but especially readers worthy of the greatness of the subject!” [i]
Adolf von Harnack, author of the authoritative two-volume work, Die Mission und Ausbreitung des Christentums in den ersten drei Jahrhunderten (‘The mission and expansion of Christianity during the first three centuries’) commented on the influence of the LXX on Western thought: “The most common attitude among Greeks who came into contact with the Old Testament was that this book and the cosmos are mutually related and must be understood together. Whatever they might think about the book, it appeared to be certain that it was a creation parallel to the world itself, equally great, and comprehensive, and that both are the work of the same Creator. What other book received a comparable verdict among thinking men?” [ii]
R.H. Pfeiffer, in his Introduction to the Old Testament, insists, “No book or collection of books have over the years been more carefully read, more widely circulated or more zealously studied than the books of the Old Testament”.
F.J.A. Hort, a co-producer of the Westcott and Hort text, writes: “By far the most of the words of the New Testament is lifted above all sifting processes of textual criticism, because they have no variants and only needs to be copied... If relatively unimportant questions... are ignored, the words that we vouch to be doubtful only encompasses about a thousandth of the whole of the New Testament.”[iii]
Sir Frederick Kenyon, Bible scholar and erstwhile director of the British Museum, said: “The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established. (But general faithfulness and (pinpoint accuracy) is a different matter).” [iv]
In his book Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, Kenyon said: “We must be satisfied with the knowledge that the general faithfulness of the New Testament text has been remarkably confirmed by recent finds. These shortened the time between original MSS and the oldest available MSS to such an extent that the different readings, even though interesting, do not change the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.” [v]
Professor Aland writes: “It can be determined, on the basis of 40 years of experience and with the results which have come to light in
examining . . . manuscripts at 1,200 test places: The text of the New Testament has been excellently transmitted, better than any
other writing from ancient times; the possibility that manuscripts might yet be found that would change its text decisively is zero.” [vi]
[i] Biblia Hebraica edidit Rudolf Kittel, Württembergische Bibelanstalt Stuttgart, 1973 edition, Introduction p. xxviii.
[ii] E. Würthwein, The Text of the Old Testament An Introduction to the Biblia Hebraica , p. 49.
[iii] B.F Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881), part I, p. 561. Cf. Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek (1988 edition), p. 2.
[iv] F. Kenyon, The Bible and Archaeology (1940), pp. 288, 289.
[v] F. Kenyon, Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts (1962), p. 249.
[vi] K. Aland, Das Neue Testament - zuverlässig überliefert (1986), pp. 28.27, 28.