Posts by Vidqun

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Phizzy and Bart, I forgot to add the following excerpt from the article:

From several statements made by Josephus, it seems clear that he viewed the fulfillment of the prophecy in the events leading up to A.D. 70 rather than in the Maccabean era.

Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 166. 2009 (662) (183). Dallas , TX : Dallas Theological Seminary. Footnote: Although Josephus’s comments are somewhat vague, this seems to be the most sensible interpretation of his remarks. See especially The Jewish Wars 4.5.2 (318, 323) and 6.2.1 (109-10), in The Works of Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1987). For further discussion see William Adler, “The Apocalyptic Survey of History Adapted by Christians: Daniel’s Prophecy of Seventy Weeks,” in The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity, ed. James C. VanderKam and William Adler (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1996), 210-16; Beckwith, “ Daniel 9 and the Date of Messiah’s Coming,” 532-36; F. F. Bruce, “Josephus and Daniel,” Annual of the Swedish Theological Institute 4 (1965): 148-62; and Geza Vermes, “Josephus’ Treatment of the Book of Daniel,” Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (1991): 149-66.

Viv, Jesus refers to himself as “son of man” many times. This is but a few. There’s many more: Matt. 8:20; 9:6; 17:12; Mr. 2:10, 11, 28; Luk. 6:5, 22; 7:34; John 3:14; 5:27; 8:28.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Bart, two points for you attention. First, the title "anointed one," is translated Messiah in Hebrew and Christ in Greek. In Israel the prospective king was anointed with oil. So anointing in Israel was closely associated with kingship not priesthood (see Saul, David, Solomon, etc.). Second point, notice the context, i.e., the rest of Daniel. In Dan. 2:44 , 45 God’s Kingdom is mentioned. For this kingdom a king needs to be appointed. In Dan. 4:24 , 25 mentions that in time God will appoint a king of his choosing. This king is identified in Dan. 7:13 , 14 as “someone like a son of man.” Jesus often referred to himself as “the son of man.” The time for his appearance as designated king is predicted at Dan. 9:24-27 . Afterwards the city and the temple were to be destroyed.

Phizzy, the earliest Christian mention of the Seventy Weeks prophecy is in the Epistle of Barnabas (ca. A.D. 100). Otherwise no extended discussion of this prophecy has been found in Christian literature before the late second century A.D. Prior to this, however, several Jewish writings include chronological schemes, some of which are based on the passage (e.g. that of the Essenes). The writers of the DSS, like Leolaia, believed in two messiahs, one a king and one a priest. The earliest clear Christian reference to Daniel 9:24-27 is by Irenaeus in his Against Heresies (ca. A.D. 180). In Book 5.25.3 he clearly linked the prophecy of the little horn in Daniel 7 to 2 Thessalonians 2 , and he indicated that the Antichrist will be in power three and a half years, etc.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

So, you are left with exercising good judgement, whether a report is true, half-true or false. And you have to allow for the benefit of the doubt. Take for example Josephus' testimony on Daniel. Do you accept it as fact or fiction:

Josephus (ca. 100 CE) would view Daniel as “one of the greatest prophets,” because not only did he prophesy future things, but he also fixed the time during which these would come to pass. He viewed the third kingdom of Dan. 2 as Greece, “from the west,” intimating that the fourth would be Rome. He was also of the opinion that the book of Daniel was in existence prior to the arrival of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BCE. Elsewhere Josephus interprets the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes as being the fulfillment of prophecies made by Daniel in the 6th century BCE. He also tells of a tower that Daniel had built at the height of his fame, at Ecbatana or Susa (according to Jerome’s copy) that became the burial place of kings. This structure was still in existence in his day, so his detractors could go and see it.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

The following is a prophecy with a promise in the book of Revelation. Time will tell whether it comes true or not:

But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth. (Rev 11:18 NWT)

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Viv, you’re attempting to apply scientific method [principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses, according to Webster] on the following:

history

1: tale, story

2

a : a chronological record of significant events (as affecting a nation or institution) often including an explanation of their causes

b : a treatise presenting systematically related natural phenomena

c : an account of a patient’s medical background

d : an established record

3: a branch of knowledge that records and explains past events

4

a : events that form the subject matter of a history

b : events of the past

c : one that is finished or done for (Webster).

As you can see from above definitions, you’re definitely going to encounter problems by doing that. And “cutting off” could be applied to Christ’s death. For those that are interested in an explanation:

As Feinberg has ably demonstrated, the Hebrew term for “cut off in verse 26 is an appropriate reference to Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross. “The ‘cutting off’ of Messiah indicates a violent death. The Hebrew word is used of making a covenant, involving the death of a sacrificial animal (Gen 15:10 , 18 ). The word is used of the death penalty ( Lev 7:20 ) and always of an unnatural violent death (cf. Isa 53:8 ).”

Vol. 166: Bibliotheca Sacra. 2009 (663) (334). Dallas , TX : Dallas Theological Seminary.

Feinberg, “An Exegetical and Theological Study of Daniel 9:24-27 ,” 202.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Viv, you're mistaken if you think we are dealing with science in this thread. Prophecy, apocalypticism, theology, are not about science. I think that's your problem. Rather try categorizing them under history (prophecy = history in advance), which you will find is not an exact "science" at all. Earlier you referred to the Messiah being cut off with nothing for himself. That's exactly what happened. Jesus Christ as king designate was paraded before the people (the end point of 69 weeks of years). A week later he was killed "with nothing for himself." It works for me, a brilliant prophecy that was indeed fulfilled in detail. Let's not concentrate on Archer's philosophy in life, rather note what he said, which is a prophecy in itself.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Back to what we are discussing, Gleason L. Archer could and did. He demonstrated that Daniel's Aramaic is much older than the Aramaic of the Genesis Apocryphon, discovered amongst the DSS (dated 200 BCE). He forced the following concession from John J. Collins, a staunch defender of a late date Daniel: While acknowledging that a “precise dating on linguistic grounds is not possible,” Collins concludes that the Aramaic of Daniel is later than that of the Samaria papyri (Wadi Daliyeh, fourth century BCE) but earlier than that of the Genesis Apocryphon (1Q20). Collins does not believe in predictive prophecy, thus his late date for the book of Daniel (ca. 165 BCE). But the further back the compilation date of Daniel is pushed, the more relevant his prophecies become. That's why Archer said what he said.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Yes , you're right. Rome wasn't mentioned. History, Josephus amongst others, tells us it was Rome. The Maccabees (also most modern scholars) believed it to be Antiochus IV Epiphanes. These are all mistaken. Antiochus never destroyed the city or the temple. That's why Jesus encouraged the reader of the prophecy to use discernment (Matt. 24:15 NW). Rotherham's translation says, "let him think." You need to think to understand. Jesus went on to say, not a stone upon a stone will be left (Matt. 24:2). That also came true.

But, sad to say, all these arguments are in vain. Gleason L. Archer, a conservative scholar, summed it up quite well when he said: “The committed antisupernaturalist, who can only explain the successful predictions of Daniel as prophecies after the fulfillment…. is not likely to be swayed by any amount of objective evidence whatever.”

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

City under discussion: Jerusalem (and its temple). Time period: After seventy weeks of years. Destroyer: Titus and his Roman legions. That's quite specific.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Vidqun

Try this one: When was the book of Daniel written? Most modern scholars prefer ca. 165 BCE or earlier. A few Daniel MSS were found amongst the DSS dated 200 BCE – 68 CE.

24 There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

27 And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate. ( Dan 9:24-27 NWT)

According to above prophecy, war would ravage the land and its people until the end. And this is exactly what happened. The Jews were in a state of war and rebellion against the Roman oppressors, until the Roman legions, under General Titus, surrounded Jerusalem. The end of the Jewish system came in 70 CE with the destruction of Jerusalem . Jesus confirmed this in the compound prophecies he made known during his sermon on the Mount of Olives (cf. Matt. 24 , Mark 13 , and Luke 21).