Vidqun

Joined

• started 26 topics
• posted 2,003 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Vidqun

• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Right, let's stick to the facts. Outright fabrication you say? Why am I waiting for the facts?
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Phizzy, during the time of the copying of the DSS (200 BCE - 68 CE), a standard consonantal text had not yet been established. The Biblical texts of Qumran can be divided into three groups:

  1) Those related to the Masoretic Text (MT),

  2) Those related to the Samaritan Pentateuch, and

  3) Those related to the LXX.

  Above is the first window. A consonantal text from Wadi Murabba`at, originating from the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt (132 - 135 CE), would create a second window for scholars to peer into. Now they were afforded an opportunity to glance at the text situation during the Bar Kochba Rebellion. These MSS belong to the Proto-Masoretic text type, which proves that this text was by then viewed as being authoritative. By then it had supplanted all other text types.

  Professor Paul Kahle puts it this way: “Thus there came in existence an authoritative text of the Torah, substantially the consonantal text of our present Masoretic text. This text was established with the aid of early manuscripts that were then available, and in contrast to the widely used popular texts of the period, which the Samaritan Pentateuch survives as an example, it gives the impression of greater age and value. The remaining books of the Bible followed. We cannot trace all the stages of the work in detail, but the result is quite evident.” [1]

  ---

  [1] P. Kahle, Die hebräischen Handschriften aus der Höhle (1951), p. 28f.
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Viv, let's do some revision. Do you accept or reject Josephus' testimony? Do you not think he would have been attacked by his peers for lying? What about the report by the liberal scholar John J. Collins? As to the status of the book of Daniel and the date of the documents and their compilation, you have been presented with the evidence. Now you have to accept or reject it. If you believe it to be false, you have to present evidence to the contrary.

  Josephus viewed Daniel as “one of the greatest prophets,” because not only did he prophesy future things, but he also fixed the time during which these would come to pass. He was also of the opinion that the book of Daniel was in existence prior to the arrival of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BCE. He viewed the third kingdom of Dan. 2 as Greece , “from the west,” intimating that the fourth would be Rome . Elsewhere Josephus interprets the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes as being the fulfillment of prophecies made by Daniel in the 6th century BCE. He also tells of a tower that Daniel had built at the height of his fame, at Ecbatana or Susa (according to Jerome’s copy) that became the burial place of kings. This structure was still in existence in his day, so his detractors could go and see it. [1]

  According to J. J. Collins, Jewish tradition related the end of the Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks to the destruction of the temple, an interpretation that may already be implied in Josephus: “Daniel also wrote about the empire of the Romans and that Jerusalem would be taken by them and the temple laid waste.” [2]

  Daniel as Scripture: At the Council of Jamnia, held after the A.D. 70 fall of Jerusalem to discuss whether certain books should be maintained as Scripture, the place of Daniel was clearly secure. From what we know of the deliberations of the Jewish religious leadership, Daniel’s place in the canon was never even a matter of discussion. It had already been fully accepted. This is established even more firmly by the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered at Qumran in 1947. Not only were several copies of the book of Daniel discovered, but other scrolls were found which were based upon Daniel-related material. These include the Prayer of Nabonidus, Pseudo-Daniel and the Book of Giants. Roger T. Beckwith discusses different computations of the Seventy Weeks prophecy. In his book he states that the Essenes’ “interpretation of the 70 Weeks is first found in the Testament of Levi and the Pseudo-Moses Documents . . . , which probably means that it was worked out before 146 B.C.” Having also examined dates based on Daniel 9 as calculated by Jewish sects other than the Essenes, Beckwith concludes: “These considerations do not make easier but more difficult the problem of the origin of the Book of Daniel. Nevertheless, they are among the data which, especially since the Qumran discoveries, have been accumulating to necessitate a reconsideration of the common Maccabean dating of that book.” [3] The latest studies indicate that much of the messianic Qumran literature that depends on Daniel can be dated to before 150 B.C. In other words, by the time of the Maccabees, Daniel had clearly already been accepted as Scripture. On that basis the writer of Daniel could not have been contemporaneous with the Maccabees and the writers of the Qumran material. This adds credence to the Jewish Talmudic teaching that the book was written (or edited) and included in the canon of Scripture by the Great Synagogue before it ceased to operate during the time of Simon the Just (circa 300 B.C.). Jews believed that the canon of Scripture was closed at that point—nothing more could be added. This would also suggest that, contrary to critics, Josephus’s claim about Alexander the Great and the high priest cannot simply be dismissed as patriotic propaganda (see also Ivor C. Fletcher’s Internet article, “Daniel in the Critics’ Den,” Vision-Insights and New Horizons).

  ---

  [1] Josephus, Antiquities, Book X, Chapter XI, § 7; Book X, Chapter X, § 4; Book XI, Chapter VIII, § 5; Book XII, Chapter VII § 6 (W. Whiston translation).

  [2] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel , Hermeneia-series, p. 356, footnote 82.

  [3] Roger T. Beckwith, Calendar and Chronology, Jewish and Christian: biblical, intertestamental and patristic studies (1996), E. J. Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands, pp. 260-262, 275.
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Not my definition of prophecy, Viv. That's from Webster Dictionary. Perhaps you should write them and inform them of the new definition. A straw man with straw in the eye. No, even if I could come up with pinpoint chronology, names, places, and events in fine detail, you and most modern scholars will reject the evidence. Why? Because you do not believe in predictive prophesy. Nothing, and nobody is going to change that. End of story. If a dog bit you in the bum, you will not believe it. You would reason: It could have been a hyena or a shark in disguise. So, straw man and changing the goal posts indeed...
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  No, Viv, what I mean is, I understand prophecy to mean "a prediction of something to come" (Webster). However, you are asking for names, events, and places. I think you are confusing the evidence of Biblical prophecy and evidence given in a Court of Law. You want to apply scientific method to history. Good luck with that, observing something that happened 2000 years ago, and accumulating first-hand knowledge. For this you need a time machine, and we're not there yet. Can you prove that all prophecies were given after the fact? We discussed Daniel as a case in point. Even with a late date Daniel, certain future predictions were made that did in fact come true. Even with Dan. 9 with its names, events, and places, you can't see it, because you don't want to see it. That's what I mean when I say, we can agree not to agree.
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Bart, first the good news. It’s possible with a minor change in one of the letters. This is the footnote in NET: tc The Hebrew text has ('ir haheres, "City of Destruction"; cf. NASB, NIV) but this does not fit the positive emphasis of vv. Is. 19:18-22. The Qumran scroll 1QIsa a and some medieval Hebrew MSS read ('ir hakheres, "City of the Sun," i.e., Heliopolis). This reading also finds support from Symmachus' Greek version, the Targum, and the Vulgate. See HALOT 257 s.v. and HALOT 355 s.v. II‎‏‎.

  I personally believe the MT to be reliable in this instance, after comparing it with Is. 1:26. Zion will be called “city of righteousness,” whereas one of the cities in Egypt would be called “city of destruction,” but after being rebuilt (spiritually restructered) “city of righteousness” (according to the reading of LXX) in line with Jer. 1:10.

  Now the bad news. The fifteen volume TDOT are not available online or as part of software programs (Logos, BibleWorks, Accordance). It can be bought from Amazon in printed form, or accessed at a University (Theological) Library.

  Viviane, we can only agree to disagree. Perhaps what Bart means, can he present a historical prophecy, one that came true in the time that it was written, as predictive prophecy?
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Bart, it's my own interpretation from information gleaned from Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. I tried to make sense of Is. 19 within the context of the book of Isaiah and the other prophetic books (cf. Is. 9:6, 7; 11:1-5, 10, etc.).
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  This is where prophetic interpretation comes in. It’s great fun, you should try it:

  This is an indication of what would happen during the Messiah’s reign. Even Canaanite nations would be enjoying God’s approval (cf. Is. 19:18 ). There will not be a curse anymore on the inabitants of the land (Zach 14:21b). These would grab at the chance to learn the “pure language, in order for them all to call upon God, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder” (cf. Zeph. 3:9 ). In the LXX “The City of Tearing Down” is called polis asedek, “City of Righteousness ”. This is a figurative city, in a spiritual sense to be torn down completely, then rebuilt at the behest of the Lord of armies ( Jer. 1:10 ; 2 Cor. 10:4 , 5 ; cf. Amos 9:11 , 12 ).

  Some of Israel ’s neigbhours, like Assyria , had been heavily militaristic. Other nations had been more liberal, like Egypt —at one time “the king of the south” in Daniel’s prophecy ( Dan. 11:5 , 8 ). Millions of individuals from the militaristic nations and the more liberal nations would be taking up the way of true worship. Thus, people from all nations would be united. There would be no nationalistic divisions among them. They would love one another, and it would be said that ‘Assyria comes into Egypt and Egypt into Assyria .’ It would be as if there were a highway from one to the other.— 1 Pet. 2:17 . Coming out of the nations—foreshadowed by Egypt and Assyria—individuals would stream to God’s house of worship and invite others to join them ( Is. 2:2-4 ).
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  No, Jwfacts, I think you're missing the point. I refer you to the following article (repetition for emphasis). In connection with Egypt of Is. 19:1-15, Ringgren of TDOT, vol. VIII, p. 529, had the following to say:

  The series of statements in Is. 19:1-15 is more problematical, and its authenticity is generally disputed based on stylistic considerations. A prediction is made for the dissolution of national order, the collapse of economic life, and the confusion of Egypt’s rulers. “A fierce king will rule over them” (v. 4: historical allusion or a prediction for the future?). Isaiah’s usual warning against reliance on Egyptian aid is absent. These assertians are followed by a series of statements introduced by bayyôm hahû’ [an eschatological marker] which are doubtlessly secondary….

  As seen, a historical fit for Is. 19 was missing. Such a period in Egyptian history cannot be identified. However, above statements would make perfect sense as a prediction for the future, as of now.
• 
  250

  Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

  by Viviane in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

  i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

  i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Read Is. 19:2 Civil war. 9, 10, 15 Economic problems. 11 Foolish leaders. Sums up with what is going on in Egypt and the world.