Yes, TD, I view human language and computer
language as Universal Information (UI), being a non-material entity, not the
property of matter, and having an intelligent sender and receiver. The question
is: Could the DNA of a living cells be viewed as a source of UI? If so, then it
must have an intelligent compiler or programmer. If not, then it would have
originated randomly by natural processes, thus spontaneous generation and
abiogenesis. The former has been disproved by Louis Pasteur in the 18th century, and I believe the
latter process to be impossible. Of course the evolutionists would reject this out of hand because if true, it would sink their beloved theory.
Posts by Vidqun
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113I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Intelligent in the sense that it does the work required. Robots have Artificial Intelligence (AI) in the sense they they perfom the function for which they were programmed. Compare the cell to a factory. It builds proteins, amongst other things. View the ribosome as the machine on the factory floor. The function of the ribosome, consisting of ribosomal RNA ( rRNA) is to bond together amino acids in the sequence specified by the codons in the messenger RNA (mRNA). The ribosome is intelligent enough to accurately “read” the instructions from the DNA of the nucleus through the mRNA. The process is called transcription. The ribosome is assisted by transfer RNA (tRNA) that carries both the matching code and the necessary amino acid. Next step is translation of the mRNA with a start and a stop codon. In between these a polypeptide, a chain of connected amino acids, is constructed with tRNA latching on to the ribosome, adding amino acids in their correct sequence in order to code for the required protein. The ribosome binds amino acids together with a covalent peptide bond, utilizing energy from guanosinetriphosphate (GTP). The stop codon releases the polypeptide to be folded into a protein with a three-dimensional configuration.Here's a demonstration of the process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG7uCskUOrA
More advanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfYf_rPWUdY
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
A ha: Sender, DNA. Reciever, ribosome. Instruction: Assembly of protein. You as the living organism would be receiving the benefit of protein assembly. In the end you would be the receiver.
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
A Ha, as I said before, I do not agree with Dr. Gitt’s theological outlook. But as a linguist and scientist, I do relate to his theory on UI (Universal Information). In his book Gitt discusses his different propositions for UI in detail. In a general discussion he touches on the Egyptian hieroglyphics and their deciphering by means of the Rosetta stone. Human language and computer language are included in this discussion. Next he explains the lowest level of information as being statistics. Shannon’s theory of information is suitable for describing statistical information.
Shannon’s Theory
1) Any random sequence of symbols is regarded as information, without regard to its origin or whether it is meaningful or not,
2) The statistical information content of a sequence of symbols is a quantitative concept, measured in bits (binary digits).
Gitt then goes on to discuss most, if not all, existing codes and coding systems. He arrives at the following conclusion:
a) A code is a necessary prerequisite for establishing and storing information.
b) Every choice of code must be well thought out beforehand in the conceptual stage.
c) If information is to be understood, the particular code must be known to both sender and recipient.
d) Devising a code is a creative mental process.
e) Matter can be a carrier of codes, but cannot generate any codes.
Furthermore, he summarizes the prerequisites of Universal Information (UI) as follows:
Cosyntics (code + syntax): Code employed and code understood.
Symantics: Communicated ideas and understood meaning.
Pragmatics: Expected action and implemented action.
Apobetics: Intended purpose and achieved result.
Summary
There can be no UI without a code.
Any code is the result of free and deliberate convention.
There can be no UI without a sender.
Any given chain of UI points to a mental source.
There can be no UI without volition (will).
There can be no UI unless all five hierarchical levels are involved: Statistics, cosyntics, semantics, pragmatics, and apobetics.
UI cannot originate in solely statistical processes or from inanimate objects.
He uses protein synthesis in the cell as the application and translation of code. A such it qualifies as UI. Proteins are the chief components and building blocks for the structural composition of living cells. Our genetic code has four base pairs (adenine, thymine, cytosine, guanine) which code for 20 amino acids required for protein synthesis. Here one needs at least 20 combinations, which could be calculated according to Shannon’s theory. Proteins function structurally/mechanically as well as functionally/enzymatically. Proteins are formed by three processes: Transcription, translation and replication. The flow of UI is a two way “conversation” with regulation on/off switches.
Summary
Code + Syntax: DNA/RNA Protein Synthesizing System (DRPSS) have an abstract code and a set of syntactical rules.
Semantics: The DNA/RNA codons substitute for/represent commands or specific amino acids and specify their proper sequence.
Pragmatics: When the ribosome ‘reads’ the RNA ‘executes command,’ and starts forming covalent peptide bonds between amino acids as specified by mRNA.
Apobetics: The purpose would be to sustain and maintain a living, functioning organism.
Deduction
Universal Information can only be created by an intelligent sender.
The ‘information’ conveyed by the DPRSS qualifies as UI.
Therefore, UI in the DRPSS must have been created by an intelligent sender.
Problem
I see now that not all are convinced that DNA/RNA of the cell nucleus, as well as its DRPSS, is a Universal Information System. But for me the evidence is overwhelming and it fits in perfectly with my world view. Time will tell whether I am right or wrong.
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Cofty, you don’t see how saying one has no intellectual honesty could be a personal insult? Like I said, you’re funny. Accusing me of having no intellectual honesty means you view me as a liar and deceiver. Harvard ethicist Louis M. Guenin describes the "kernel" of intellectual honesty to be "a virtuous disposition to eschew deception when given an incentive for deception." Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are called intellectual dishonesty. You are actually comparing me to JWs. Now that’s an insult!
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Cofty, you are really funny. It's in order for you to insult and say your say, but when you receive in the same measure, you are unhappy. Talking of facts, we are still on the large genome of Amoeba and Japonica, or have you forgotten. You insist on my version, I am still waiting to be enlightened by yours. I am sure your fellow evolutionists would also be interested in your revolutionary revelation. None of them seemed to have cracked it. We are all waiting with bated breath.
I put my money on Dr Leitch and her team to answer the conundrum eventually. Big genome means bad news for the organism, especially in the adverse conditions of today. Try to follow her logic. Having such a large genome could help explain why Paris japonica was so slow-growing and vulnerable to pollution and other extreme conditions. She added: "Having that much DNA does have consequences for the plant – plants with big genomes are at greater risk of extinction, more sensitive to pollution. Having so much DNA means every time you want to divide a cell in order to grow, you have to replicate all that DNA and it takes a lot longer."
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Any flaws in Amoeba or Japonica? They work very well, thank you. By the way, let us hear your exulted explanation of their super genome size. None of the scientists seem to pinpoint the reason. However, you seem to be an expert on the subject. Can you (or Dawkins) enlighten us? You insinuate bad or superfluous design? Not that I am aware of anything amiss in that department.
You seem to latch on a subject, and then just cannot let go. Must be the English Bulldog in you. Do you drool a lot? If so, then it must be those genes coming through strongly. If it's not "what books have you read"? then it is "you say you're a microbiologist." Now it seems to be the large Amoeba and Japonica genome. Perhaps your next tangent is going to be intellectual dishonesty, not that you would know what that means.
As above quote show, the problem lies with you and people like you. An evolutionist/atheist is indeed a rather nasty piece of work. No accountability, no morality, no ethics. You and your ilk just carry on regardless, with no regard for future generations. What did A ha say, there's no causality, it's all just random.
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Cofty, small genome, big genome, does it matter? The Amoeba is doing well. Under the right conditions, Paris japonica is doing well. Nothing wrong with their design, internally or externally. If left alone they will flourish, as will the rest of the fauna and flora on the planet. There’s one problem though. A recent Time Magazine reported on the meeting of the International Union of Geological Sciences (IUGS) and our new age, called Anthropocene:
“For 12,000 years, we lived through an epoch known as the Holocene, which provided a stable and relatively warm climate that allowed humans to develop everything from agriculture to atomic power. But that success remade the planet we live on through widespread deforestation, overfishing of the oceans, the extinction of countless species and the altering of the planet’s climate through the emission of greenhouse gases. Most telling is the spread of radioactive material across Earth since 1950 as a result of the testing of nuclear bombs.
“Paul Crutzen, a Nobel Prize-winning chemist, first described this human-influenced era more than a decade ago with a focus on climate change. The downside of human influence should be obvious – we’re not just changing our planet but destroying it.” Article by Justin Worland in Time Magazine, Vol. 188, No. 10-11, 2016, p. 8.
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
Cofty, as I told you. I don't know, I'm not a botanist or zoologist. Not sure why you are harping on this? Look at an Amoeba dubia or Camelia japonica (if that is what you mean by Japonica)? A beautiful flowering plant, yet far removed from us humans. Amoeba is a one-celled organism. Why would their genome be bigger? Good question.
Here’s a possible answer. Might be the fact that the DNA of the single-celled organism happen to be so extensive to have resulted in a limitation of that species' adaptability? A very sloppy little computer program may well serve its simple function even though it is inefficiently written; yet, it is not likely to be useful as the hub for building a more complex program. Perhaps one of the apprentices worked on those two (as well as the cockroach and mosquito), who knows? Makes me think of Terry Pratchett, one of my all-time favorites. Now that’s a gentleman that had a spectacular imagination. Rincewind’s Australian visit is called “The Last Continent.” Do yourself a favor and read it. You need to lighten up. I stand by what I wrote. Compare that to our computers and computer programs. We don't even come close:
... man is undoubtably the most complex information-processing system on earth. The total number of bits handled daily in all information-processing events occurring in the human body is approximately 3 x 10²⁴. This includes all deliberate as well as all involuntary activities, the former comprising the use of language and the information required for controlling voluntary movements, while the latter includes the control of the internal organs and hormonal systems. The number of bits being processed daily in the human body is more than a million times the total amount of human knowledge stored in all the libraries of the world, which is about 10¹⁸ bits.
Quite a few people are six feet tall. If unraveled the DNA molecule of any cell in one’s body is approximately seven feet long. The information in a single DNA strand is the equivalent of many sets of Encyclopedias. Think about it, the fertilized ovum is the size of a pinhead. That nucleus supplies all the information to construct a person.Some interesting discussions on the Internet, dealing with above two. But it seems, nobody knows for sure.
Here's a few interesting observations by a botanist, Ilia Leitch, Research Scientist at the Jodrell Laboratory at Kew, concerning Paris japonica (Japanese canopy plant): 'We were astounded when we discovered that this small stunning plant had such a large genome - it’s so large that when stretched out it would be taller than the tower of Big Ben.
'Some people may wonder what the consequences are of such a large genome and whether it really matters if one organism has more DNA than another. The answer to this is a resounding “yes, it does”, and the consequences operate at all levels from the cell up to the whole organism and beyond. In plants, research has demonstrated that those with large genomes are at greater risk of extinction, are less adapted to living in polluted soils and are less able to tolerate extreme environmental conditions – all highly relevant in today’s changing world.'
This brings us back to the comparison of the computer programs, large and clunky ones and sleek and compact ones.
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113
I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...
by ILoveTTATT2 inso... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).
actually, i am helping with two classes.
i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.
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Vidqun
A ha, wrong. I first got some of the information from here. That is no secret (see previous threads):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35fulERIUnU
The rest of the information I got from two books written by Dr. Werner Gitt, called "In the beginning was information" and "Without Excuse." The books are based on articles he wrote and lectures he gave while appointed Professor and Director at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (1978). He was head of the Department of Information Technology. His biography states: "He has written numerous scientific papers in the field of information science, numerical mathematics and control engineering." I have a list of his articles and lectures for those that are interested. He would write his technical articles and lectures under the auspices of the German Federal Institute. He actually invites all to disseminate the information on information in the interest of truth.
But thanks for the link to the website. It might come in handy for future reference.
The study of information was his life's work and I believe he knows what he is talking about there. Yes, he's not popular because what he says about information is true and the truth hurts. I don't agree with his theology though. As a Young Earth proponent, he insists that God is above His natural laws and that these do not apply to Him. I, on the other hand believe that God follows His natural laws in creation. This I base on results obtained from archaeology, linguistics, carbon dating and the fossil record.
I have not encountered much refutation of his work on information. I believe it is because his logic is impeccable. Not many want to take him on in his own field of expertise, which was his life's work. I am a linguist at heart and his laws on information make 100% sense. Human language, computer language and DNA "language" do not fall out of the air. In each case it would come from an intelligent source, the first from a human being, the second from a computer programmer and the third arose spontaneously (by spontaneous combustion?) from the activities of basic elements, molecules, gases, electrons and energy (heat from the earth, lightning and sunlight). No, the latter must have come from a very intelligent Creator. Not rocket science at all, I'm sorry you don't see it that way. Because of that, you will have a distinct disadvantage in your life and in your studies.