Posts by Vidqun

24

Why doesn't the wt discuss the real reason many partake?

by nowwhat? in

it has nothing to do about feeling chosen or ruling in heaven, but rather many feel it's a command for all christians, that by partaking you are accepting christ as their saviour!

john 6-.

Vidqun

I do believe the Watchtower interpretation is untenable for a number of reasons. For those that are interested I will try to explain. The arguments for and against are clearly set out in the footnote of the NET Bible, basically the difference between the Catholic and Protestant position. Obviously the editors of NET take the Protestant position, seeing that it is a Protestant Bible:

John 6:53 (NET footnote) says: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood. These words are at the heart of the discourse on the Bread of Life, and have created great misunderstanding among interpreters. Anyone who is inclined toward a sacramental viewpoint will almost certainly want to take these words as a reference to the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, or the Eucharist, because of the reference to ‘eating his flesh’ and ‘drinking his blood’ (John 6:53ff.; cf. Matt. 26:26-28). But this does not automatically follow: By anyone’s definition there must be a symbolic element to the eating which Jesus speaks of in the discourse, and once this is admitted, it is better to understand it here, as in the previous references in the passage, to a personal receiving of (or appropriation of) Christ and his work. Notice that in John 6:54 (NET footnote) the result (has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day) is produced by eating (Jesus’) flesh and drinking his blood. Compare John 6:40 where the same result is produced by “looking on the Son and believing in him.” This suggests that the phrase here (eats my flesh and drinks my blood) is to be understood by the phrase in John 6:40 (looks on the Son and believes in him).

However, I personally believe that it is no coincidence that Jesus uses this very same terminology when instituting the memorial of his death. Early on in his ministry (already in John 6) he would be preparing the people for the Eucharist. Note the context, he is speaking to all the people, including Pharisees. He also refers to Judas who would betray him (6:71).

His intimate followers, later to be anointed with holy spirit, are in a special covenant relationship with him (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30; cf. Rev. 5:9, 10). They would be celebrating the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness of sins as well as being participants of the new covenant as leaders of the Israel of God (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:25; Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 14:1-5; 20:4). Jesus’ earthly subjects would celebrate the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness sins and being participants of the new covenant as part of the Israel of God. By so doing both groups would be unified in “proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives” and attaining the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:24-26; Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. John 6:56).

After the death and resurrection of the Christ, God would choose a people, made up of individuals from the nations, for his Name. By divine providence these would be called Christians (Acts 11:26; 15:14-18). However, the prophet Isaiah predicts the miraculous birth of a nation as a new creation, suddenly, and without birth pains (Is. 54:6-8, 13; 62:4, 5; 66:6-10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 4:24-27). This new nation, known as “the Israel of God” as well as the “the tribes of the people of Israel” will be chosen from the nations to replace “fleshly Israel” (cf. Is. 66:8; Dan. 9:27a; Matt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 10:18; Gal. 6:16; Rev. 7:4 NET). God will be concluding with them a new or better covenant (Heb. 8:6, 9, 10; 10:16).

Definition of a new creation is a person who is in union with Christ: “Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ [united with the Messiah, CJB], he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence” (2 Cor. 5:17). The Israel of God also qualifies as a new creation as it is born miraculously, without birth pains: “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God” (Is. 66:7; Gal. 4:24-27; 6:15, 16 NIV1984).

The transition between aforementioned chapters of Revelation (6:15-17; 7:1) is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition), “and after this,” “this” referring to the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. If that is the case, the sealing of the 144000 should be viewed as a future event. Note also that they are taken from the twelve tribes of Israel (7:4).

39

Who make up the new memorial partakers?

by jwfacts in

when the doctrine regarding 1935 being the close of the calling was done away with in 2007, it was not unexpected to see the number rise.

over the next few years it went from around 8,500 to 10,500. this seemed to indicate that there were a couple of thousand people that may have felt they had the calling all along, but too shy to profess it.

for the 30 year period between the mid 1978 and 2007, parktakers had barely dropped.

Vidqun

The sealing of the 144000 is a future occurrence. This according to the context of Rev. 7. So I believe Witness interpretation is all wrong. And if that is the case, the governing body is illegitimate. The changeover from Rev. 6:17 to 7:1 makes it clear.

While the high and mighty of the earth and their attendants run to their underground cities to hide, leaving the ordinary folk to fend for themselves, the remainder of the 144000 are being sealed. These are taken from the twelve figurative tribes of Israel, i.e., “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 7:4-8). God’s angel will be sealing them during the prelude to the Tribulation, 12000 from each tribe (Rev. 6:12-7:4). These follow in the footsteps of their Master, Christ (Hebr. 12:2). They would be sealed for their protection (Rev. 7:3, 4; 9:4).The transition between aforementioned chapters of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition), “and after this,” “this” referring to the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters.

What makes it worse is that they withhold the memorial and the partaking of the emblems from 7-8 million people and all those before them. Jesus made it clear: “Accordingly Jesus said to them, Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves (John 6:53 NWT).”

39

Who make up the new memorial partakers?

by jwfacts in

when the doctrine regarding 1935 being the close of the calling was done away with in 2007, it was not unexpected to see the number rise.

over the next few years it went from around 8,500 to 10,500. this seemed to indicate that there were a couple of thousand people that may have felt they had the calling all along, but too shy to profess it.

for the 30 year period between the mid 1978 and 2007, parktakers had barely dropped.

Vidqun

The simple explanation is that everyone who views himself/herself a Christian, partake of the emblems for forgiveness of sins and to advertise the death of their Lord. Remember, in Raymond Franz's time some Bethelites partook of the emblems after the memorial and in secret. This many believe is not only a prerequisite for the so-called remnant of the 144000 but for all Christians. Where do all this come from? The following is a quote of John (6:53) from the NET Bible footnote:

Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood. These words are at the heart of the discourse on the Bread of Life, and have created great misunderstanding among interpreters. Anyone who is inclined toward a sacramental viewpoint will almost certainly want to take these words as a reference to the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, or the Eucharist, because of the reference to ‘eating his flesh’ and ‘drinking his blood’ (John 6:53ff.; cf. Matt. 26:26-28). But this does not automatically follow: By anyone’s definition there must be a symbolic element to the eating which Jesus speaks of in the discourse, and once this is admitted, it is better to understand it here, as in the previous references in the passage, to a personal receiving of (or appropriation of) Christ and his work. Notice that in John 6:54 (NET footnote) the result (has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day) is produced by eating (Jesus’) flesh and drinking his blood. Compare John 6:40 where the same result is produced by “looking on the Son and believing in him.” This suggests that the phrase here (eats my flesh and drinks my blood) is to be understood by the phrase in John 6:40 (looks on the Son and believes in him).

However, many believe that the above is no coincidence. This is the only place where the Apostle John refers to the memorial (cf. John 6:70, 71). Jesus uses this very same terminology when instituting the memorial of his death. Early on in his ministry (already in John 6) he would be preparing the people for the Eucharist. His intimate followers, later to be anointed with holy spirit, would celebrate the memorial for the forgiveness of their sins and as participants of the new covenant, prospective members of the 144000 (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:25; Rev. 14:1). Jesus’ earthly subjects would celebrate the memorial in remembrance of their Lord and for the forgiveness of their sins. By doing this both groups would be unified in “proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives” and attaining the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:24-26; cf. John 6:56).

4

Watchtower's 144,000 logic Questioned

by Vanderhoven7 in

the watchtower september 1, 1951, in a wonderful article entitled “hated for his name”(pp518,519) describes the persecution and martyrdom of steadfast christians in the first 3 centuries ad.. “by the year (a.d.) 64 christianity was prominent throughout much of the roman empire, including the capital city rome itself.

their individual characteristics, form of worship and steadfast refusal to compromise thereon had madethe christians sure targets of hostility and ridicule.

that year, the tenth in the reign of emperor nero, rome was swept by a conflagration so great it is yet the object of poetry and legend....diocletian assumed the crown a.d. 284.. at first he seemed friendly to the christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all.

Vidqun

According to my reading of the passage, they've got it all wrong. This is a future occurrence. See if you can follow the reasoning:

While the high and mighty of the earth and their attendants run to their underground cities to hide, leaving the ordinary folk to fend for themselves, the remainder of the 144000 are being sealed. These are taken from the twelve figurative tribes of Israel, i.e., “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 7:4-8). God’s angel will be sealing them during the prelude to the Tribulation, 12000 from each tribe (Rev. 6:12-7:4). These follow in the footsteps of their Master, Christ (Hebr. 12:2). They would be sealed for their protection (Rev. 7:3, 4; 9:4).The transition between aforementioned chapters of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition), “and after this,” “this” referring to the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters.

14

"The sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light." How do events like this affect superstitious humans?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the gospel of matthew's homily on the signs connected with the imagined return of christ, features an element of the sign that seems to really scare superstitious people.. matthew 24:29 reads: "immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;".

in the nineteenth century such an even occurred twice in the 19th century and apparently became part of charlie russell's conviction that the end of the world was nigh, charlie, of course, was a 'man of faith' accepting the bible as true and not willing to search for alternative explanation for such events.

if charlie r. had been the sort of person that continually asks why, his life and ours may have taken a different course.. i cannot quote where in his mass of writings he cites those 19th c events (its a long time since i've bothered to be interested in his writings), but mention them he did, and saw these events as proof of the imminent return of jesus christ.. so let's look at these two 19th c.natural occurrences, and compare them to another occurrence some 1400 years ago.. the 19th c events occurred in 1814-16 and again circa, 1883. the reason for the sun and moon being darkened was volcanic activity, easy for us to appreciate, but more difficult for religiously superstitious people.. the wikipedia encyclopedia notes the 1814-16 event: quote.

Vidqun

Historically, the sun has switched off in Argentina, Switzerland and Siberia. How on earth do you switch off the sun? Do some research. Check the news and webcams. Please see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3eDDkxjAhs

14

"The sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light." How do events like this affect superstitious humans?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the gospel of matthew's homily on the signs connected with the imagined return of christ, features an element of the sign that seems to really scare superstitious people.. matthew 24:29 reads: "immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;".

in the nineteenth century such an even occurred twice in the 19th century and apparently became part of charlie russell's conviction that the end of the world was nigh, charlie, of course, was a 'man of faith' accepting the bible as true and not willing to search for alternative explanation for such events.

if charlie r. had been the sort of person that continually asks why, his life and ours may have taken a different course.. i cannot quote where in his mass of writings he cites those 19th c events (its a long time since i've bothered to be interested in his writings), but mention them he did, and saw these events as proof of the imminent return of jesus christ.. so let's look at these two 19th c.natural occurrences, and compare them to another occurrence some 1400 years ago.. the 19th c events occurred in 1814-16 and again circa, 1883. the reason for the sun and moon being darkened was volcanic activity, easy for us to appreciate, but more difficult for religiously superstitious people.. the wikipedia encyclopedia notes the 1814-16 event: quote.

Vidqun

So, if the sun is not giving out white light, that means the moon will be dark. Reminds me of "Eclipse" of Pink Floyd, which turns out to be prophetic: "There's no dark side of the moon really, matter of fact, it's all dark."

Have you noticed the pink-purple skies? Do yourself a favor and view feeds from the space station, when their spotlights are turned off. Everything is bathed in a purple hue. At the moment the moon would be the color of blood, purplish-blue (venous blood). What you see up there is either a projection or a hologram. It is much shinier than usual. And since when does the moon appear to be in front of the clouds? This explains the anomalies viewed during the American eclipse, which was man-made. Look it up, makes for interesting reading.

14

"The sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light." How do events like this affect superstitious humans?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the gospel of matthew's homily on the signs connected with the imagined return of christ, features an element of the sign that seems to really scare superstitious people.. matthew 24:29 reads: "immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;".

in the nineteenth century such an even occurred twice in the 19th century and apparently became part of charlie russell's conviction that the end of the world was nigh, charlie, of course, was a 'man of faith' accepting the bible as true and not willing to search for alternative explanation for such events.

if charlie r. had been the sort of person that continually asks why, his life and ours may have taken a different course.. i cannot quote where in his mass of writings he cites those 19th c events (its a long time since i've bothered to be interested in his writings), but mention them he did, and saw these events as proof of the imminent return of jesus christ.. so let's look at these two 19th c.natural occurrences, and compare them to another occurrence some 1400 years ago.. the 19th c events occurred in 1814-16 and again circa, 1883. the reason for the sun and moon being darkened was volcanic activity, easy for us to appreciate, but more difficult for religiously superstitious people.. the wikipedia encyclopedia notes the 1814-16 event: quote.

Vidqun

"Then I looked when the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and a huge earthquake took place; the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the full moon became blood red" (Rev. 6:12 NET).

Half Banana, perhaps this will help you to consider such a sweeping statement. Above photo is of the sun, using a zoom lens, polaroid and light density filter. The light density filter gradually removes the light as you turn it from maximum to minimum. As you remove the light, above photo is what you end up with. Obviously above is not the sun. Question is: Where is the sun? Here I refer you to above scripture as explanation. Not bad for a prediction made over two thousand years ago. Go figure.

15

William Redding

by Bobcat in

is anyone familiar with this person and his possible relationship with ctr or the wt?.

if you are wondering why i ask, take a look here and scroll down one page and start reading a little.. i could not find any mention of him in the wt online library.

i wonder if this is something barbara anderson would be familiar with?.

Vidqun

That type of question you should ask Vienne. She's an expert on JW history.

14

"The sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light." How do events like this affect superstitious humans?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the gospel of matthew's homily on the signs connected with the imagined return of christ, features an element of the sign that seems to really scare superstitious people.. matthew 24:29 reads: "immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;".

in the nineteenth century such an even occurred twice in the 19th century and apparently became part of charlie russell's conviction that the end of the world was nigh, charlie, of course, was a 'man of faith' accepting the bible as true and not willing to search for alternative explanation for such events.

if charlie r. had been the sort of person that continually asks why, his life and ours may have taken a different course.. i cannot quote where in his mass of writings he cites those 19th c events (its a long time since i've bothered to be interested in his writings), but mention them he did, and saw these events as proof of the imminent return of jesus christ.. so let's look at these two 19th c.natural occurrences, and compare them to another occurrence some 1400 years ago.. the 19th c events occurred in 1814-16 and again circa, 1883. the reason for the sun and moon being darkened was volcanic activity, easy for us to appreciate, but more difficult for religiously superstitious people.. the wikipedia encyclopedia notes the 1814-16 event: quote.

Vidqun

Perhaps viewing it from another angle might be helpful. One should keep in mind that some Biblical prophecies could have a primary as well as a secondary fulfillment. If you believe that you are in good company. A number of scholars (e.g., Jerome, Martin Luther) would view Antiochus IV Epiphanes as a type of the Antichrist. And that would explain the partial or secondary (imperfect) fulfillments of Daniel’s prophecies during the years leading up to the second century BCE. The full or primary (perfect) fulfillment would occur, with new role players, during the end time (cf. Dan. 11:40-45). Most famous example of a double fulfillment must be the composite sign of Jesus’ end time prophecy, which deals with the conclusion of the Jewish system, yet corresponds to his parousia at the conclusion of the present system (cf. Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luk. 21). Note also some OT prophecies deal primarily with Israel and its neighbors, but then reminds the reader of the day of the LORD and the final reckoning of the human race. E.g. Is. Is. 2:9-12, 17, 19-21; Joel 2:30, 31; cf. Rev. 6:12-17.

15

William Redding

by Bobcat in

is anyone familiar with this person and his possible relationship with ctr or the wt?.

if you are wondering why i ask, take a look here and scroll down one page and start reading a little.. i could not find any mention of him in the wt online library.

i wonder if this is something barbara anderson would be familiar with?.

Vidqun

Interesting book. In my research I have come to a similar conclusion. However, the difference would be that I view it as being a future event.