Posts by Vidqun

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

Peacefulpete, John is the last of the apostles, held prisoner by the Romans on the Isle of Patmos. John says so himself (Rev. 1:9). There's no reason why I should question him or his existence. We've got his books (John, 1-3 John and Revelation) and witness borne to that effect by the Church Fathers. That the images of Revelation could be known to the author only, or only to be explained by the apocalyptic literature corpus, is another fallacy. The book of Revelation is unique. Every page shows how immersed its speech and imagery are in the OT. Every page shows also how free the author is from the letter of the OT and from any attested apocalyptic tradition. That is why its theological and prophetic contribution is of immense value to understanding the Bible message.

Jeffro, I don't understand you. You believe all of it is "convoluted nonsense." Why do you participate in these conversations at all? It seems to me you are so intent at disproving the theological argument that it has become an obsession. You can be an atheist, agnostic, believer or antichrist. Which one are you? If I knew that I might be able to supply you with a proper answer. Two options here, either the prophecy failed or we are looking at a future fulfillment. If you read the reference in Peter, that would have explained to you the significance of the transfiguration. It's not that complicated. The possibility exists that the "Moses" and "Elijah" the disciples saw foreshadow Revelation's two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-6). So, it's a future occurrence. Jesus, after he has become king, will guide these as to their work:

16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence.

17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory, This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.

18 Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 NW) [Cursive script added.]

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

Truth_b_known, those around him did see him in kingdom glory. It's called the transfiguration. Its importance is suggested by the fact that it appears at length in each of the Synoptics:

Matthew 16:27–17:13; Mark 9:1–13; Luke 9:27–36. The entire picture can be seen only as all three accounts are diligently compared. In all, thirty-eight verses of the Sacred Text are assigned to the description of this event; added to these are the three verses of 2 Peter 1:16–18, in which portion the divine interpretation is revealed.

Lenski is correct that “all these things” (Matt. 24:33) refers to the preceding context beginning in Matthew 24:3.1) More specifically, it points to the Great Tribulation, and the appearance of the two prophets, as a specific sign of the end of the present system. Therefore the “generation” referred to in Matthew 24:34 is the generation who will see the Great Tribulation, and not the generation living during Jesus’ first advent. 2)

So in Matt.24:34 one must establish to whom is he referring, to those of his generation or to those that will witness the great tribulation (Matt. 24:20-22, 32). Jesus is here using the fig tree as a natural illustration and not as a typical one. In other words, just as a budding fig tree is a sign that summer is near, so the Great Tribulation itself is a sign of the end of the age.

1) R. C. H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. Matthew’s Gospel (Minneapolis, 1943), p. 951.

2) J. F. Walvoord (1972). “Christ’s Olivet Discourse on the Time of the End.” Bibliotheca Sacra, 129, pp. 20–23.

Peacefulpete, I believe John of Patmos was the writer. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the book.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

Jeffro, this is how I see it. Note there will be celestial phenomena twice, at the beginning and at the end of the Tribulation. Jesus' Olivet discourse, especially Matthew and Luke, serves as a confirmation of the Revelation chronology (Matt. 24 & 25; Mark 13; Luke 21).

A. Pre-tribulation period. Jesus said: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs” (Luke 21:10, 11; cf. Matt. 24:6, 7; Rev. 6:1-8). This is a fitting summary of the first phase of Jesus’ composite sign.

B. Prelude to the tribulation. Above prepares the way for the breaking of the sixth seal. Jesus continues: “Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken” (Luke 21:25, 26; cf. Rev. 6:12-17). This introduces the second phase of his prophetic sign.

C. Great tribulation. As seen, successive cosmic disasters and deadly plagues lie in wait. This is to be the tribulation proper. Jesus warned: “Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short” (Matt. 24:15, 20-22; Mark 13:14, 19, 20; cf. Dan. 12:1; Rev. 8, 9, 11, 15, 16). This describes conditions during the tribulation, the third phase of Jesus’ warning sign.

D. Post-tribulation period. After the Tribulation, during Jesus’ Second Coming, celestial phenomena will again be the order of the day. This is the beginning of the LORD’s Day (Mark 13:24, 25, 28-32; Luke 21:27-33 NIV; cf. Is. 13:9-13; Joel 2:1, 2a; 3:14-16; Rev. 16:14, 16; 17:12-14). This is the fourth phase of his prophecy.

E. Judgment. Jesus will be filling the dual role of judge and executioner during the period of his Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46; Acts 17:31; cf. Rev. 11:18; 14:14-20; 19:11-21). This is the fifth and final phase of Jesus’ composite sign.

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

Jeffro, you say first century fulfillment. I don't see it, not even at a stretch.

As indicated, Jesus’ words according to Luke (21:11 CJB) will become relevant: “there will be great earthquakes [Gr. σεισμοί τε μεγάλοι, lit. mega-quakes] there will be epidemics and famines [Gr. λιμοὶ καὶ λοιμοι, lit. hunger, famine and plague, pestilence] in various places, and there will be fearful sights and great signs from Heaven [Gr. ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ σημεῖα μεγάλα, lit. from heaven spectacular signs or portents].” The latter is a transitional phrase. It finalizes the first phase of Jesus’ composite sign, in order to pave the way for the second, i.e., the breaking of the sixth seal. Even in Pre-Tribulation times there will be “terrifying sights and great signs from heaven,” for all to see (Luke 21:11 CSBO; cf. Joel 2:30 [3:3]; Acts 2:19). The second phase is the prelude to the Tribulation:

25 Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near (Luke 21:25, 26, 28; cf. Rev. 6:12-17).

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

Yes, you're right Raymond. To explain Revelation, Daniel's input would be needed. The book of Revelation is left unsealed, but Daniel's book is sealed until the time of the end (Dan. 12:4, 9; Rev. 22:10).

I agree the beasts share similar animal characteristics. But your first combination beast of Rev. 13 only reigned 42 months (Rev. 13:5). That means it would be assimilated by the image, becoming a beast in its own right, i.e., the scarlet-colored wild beast of Rev. 17. The same goes for the ten kings (earthly totality = all the kings on earth) and Daniel's beasts (remnants of those would be Iraq, Iran, Greece and Italy). These would become part of the scarlet-colored wild beast. Why? Because at Armageddon only two beasts would remain for Jesus to deal with, Beast from the earth (False prophet) and the scarlet-colored wild beast (Beast from the abyss). See Rev. 19:20; 20:10.

Nebuchadnezzar's dream image, and the different layers of metal, compares well with Dan 7. To force Russia into the mix would upset the chronological order. By the way, quite a few evangelical Christians are also doing the same. I prefer using Dan. 11:40 to explain the war in Ukraine. It's part of the pushing between the two kings, which is similar to the Society's viewpoint. The final clay and iron of the feet, which do not mix, also correspond to Daniel 11:40 and the competition between the King of the North and South.

Jeffro, here's something for you to think about. Would you say it is all due to coincidence?

The Biblical importance of a future “tribulation” or “time of distress” should not be underestimated. A multitude of passages, peppered all over Scripture, directly or indirectly refer to the “great tribulation” and connected events (cf. Is. 2:10, 19, 21; 13:10, 11; Amos 8:9, 11, 12; Hag. 2:6; Hebr. 12:26-29). In addition, nearly two thirds of the book of Joel describes tribulation parallels (Joel, chapter 1 & 2). Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises information about the “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:15-28). Nearly a third of the book of Revelation (chapters 6-9, 11, 15, 16) deals exclusively with tribulation related developments. And as will be seen, prophetic chronology of both Daniel and Revelation points to important facets of the tribulation period (Dan. 8:11-14, 25; 12:1, 7, 11, 12; Rev. 11:2, 3).

50

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

by raymond frantz in

.

https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

Vidqun

I really don't understand your "historical view." Rev. 4:1 is a good example. The following article makes sense to me:

Most commentaries do not tackle the theological or prophetic question, but assume a historical interpretation. Theologically, this is based on the view that biblical prophecies always have concrete, contemporary significance; indeed, R. Schütz takes the view that prophecy in Revelation is written at the time when the author thinks the great turning point must come. Historically such an interpretation is based on the suggestion that apocalyptic literature is always written with contemporary reference at times when some turning point was expected in view of the urgency of the need.

NT prophecy has permanent significance because no one knows the hour and the mystery of iniquity is already at work, as expressed in Revelation by the fact that Babylon sits on the beast, i.e., has a lasting connection with it which is not dependent on the manifestation of the beast. The historical argument for the contemporary interpretation of Revelation, and especially of the beasts, namely, that apocalyptic literature demands such an interpretation, rests on the petitio principii that Revelation is to be interpreted in terms of this literature. It is well known to what difficulties application of this interpretation leads.

Similarly, the view of Schütz (464) that the images of Revelation could be known to the author only, from apocalyptic literature is another petitio principii. Every page of Revelation shows how immersed its speech and imagery are in the OT. Every page shows also how free the author is from the letter of the OT and from any attested apocalyptic tradition. This is why the question of the theological and prophetic significance of the images must be raised.

See G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, G. Friedrich (Eds.). (1964–). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 3, pp. 135, 136, footnote 11). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

70

Hi again

by Lee Marsh in

jw
friends

it is nice to see some familiar faces here.

for those who don't know who i am my last id was lady lee.

thought i would drop by and say hello; see how people are doing.

Vidqun

Hi Lady Lee, good to hear from you. Sorry to hear of your uphill battle. My mother also had cancer (colon) and did chemo and the different cures. Something worked. She is in remission for the last seven years. When I heard that cancer grows anaerobically (in the absence of oxygen), I bought her an oxygen concentrator. If you haven't tried it, give it a go. You never know. Oxygen is one of the most natural "cures" and definitely not detrimental to your health.

22

Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

by Terry in

ezekiel 9:4.

“go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

Vidqun

Terry, I looked it up and you're right.

Bauer-Leander Heb. 449f (on p. 450); the last letter of the Old Canaanite alphabet was written in the shape of a St. Andrew’s Cross; this amounted to a simple mark, which was actually the mark of a herdsman; an etymological connection can be made with Arb. taww individual, separate item, cf. Bauer-Leander Heb. loc. cit. (KBS).

35

Isn’t JW’s teaching of “the abomination that causes desolation” wrong?

by Abraham1 in

what “the abomination that causes desolation” mentioned in mathew 24:15 means could be understood only by close followers of jesus because it was part of his personal discussion with them.

by stopping to greet those whom they consider as “their enemies” jws are identifying themselves as “pagans,” according to jesus.

(mathew 5:43-48) thus they cannot correctly understand what the abomination that causes desolation” that would appear as part of signs of “last days.”.

Vidqun

Disillusioned, just the other way round. According to the Society, King of the South = Anglo-America. King of the North = Russia and following. Here's a summary of the first "desolator" as I see it.

ABOMINATIONS CAUSING DESOLATION

Dan. 9:27b

Pax Romana

Ara Pacis Augustae

The Ara Pacis Augustae (Altar of Augustan Peace), erected in Rome in 9 BCE, stands as a monument to the Pax Romana, an era of peace and prosperity throughout the Roman Empire ushered in by the Emperor Augustus. Relief carvings decorate the walls surrounding the altar, which is now located at the Museum of the Ara Pacis Augustae, in Rome.

The Roman Empire introduced the Pax Romana in 9 BCE to celebrate the peaceful rule of Caesar Augustus. During this time of peace and prosperity the Empire would flourish. On the contrary, Dan. 7:19 portrays Rome as a ferocious beast, “extraordinary fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its feet.”

The iron teeth beast can only be Rome. “There is” (says Herodian, ii. 11.7) “no part of the earth and no region of the heavens whither the Romans have not extended their dominion.” Such is also the conclusion reached by Martin Luther: “In this interpretation and opinion,” he observes, “all the world are agreed, and history and fact abundantly establish it.” It certainly lived up to its name. By destroying Jerusalem in 70 CE, Rome took on the Biblical title “abominations causing desolation:”

"And upon the wing of disgusting things [“abominations,” ESV, NET] there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate" (Dan. 9:27b; cf. Luke 21:20-24).

“The Roman standards were guarded with religious veneration in the temples at Rome; and the reverence of this people for their ensigns was in proportion to their superiority to other nations . . . [To soldiers it] was perhaps the most sacred thing the earth possessed. The Roman soldier swore by his ensign.”—The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th Edition.

19

May 2022 Study Watchtower - FAKE prophecy again for JW's

by BoogerMan in

may 2022 study watchtower page 6, par.

5 “satan instigated an attack on the anointed brothers who were taking the lead in the kingdom-preaching work.

prominent ones among them were the figurative “two witnesses” spoken of as being killed.”.

Vidqun

Rev. 17:8 Beast about to ascend out of the abyss ["is about to come up from the abyss" NET]

Rev. 11:7 Beast that ascends out of the abyss ["the beast that comes up from the abyss" NET]

Conclusion: 1) Same beast. 2) Rev. 11 & 17 not in chronological order. 3) Fake (Watchtower) prophecy.