Sorry. Internet outage. Will get back to thread soon. Must catch up first.
Posts by Vidqun
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62Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
PetrW, coming back to your questions.
1. the Beast ascends into the sea (13:1) whole, including all 7 heads, and the Beast (not the head) is also cast into the lake of fire (19,20).
2. Rev. 1:1 ("what must come to pass") and 1:3 "the time is at hand" delineate apocalyptic events into the future. How is it possible that John is writing about the future but actually sees the past? Real but extinct e.g. Assyria, how does that affect the future?What does Egypt, Assyria and Medo-Persia got to do with the price of eggs? To answer these type of questions, I always refer back to the book of Daniel. Here God presents us with a world view. First the dream image with its dfferent levels of metal. However you want to interpret it, it comes to an end with Armageddon. Then God's kingdom under Christ Jesus takes over (cf. Dan. 2:44, 45).
Within this context, one finds the vision of the four beasts. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. From Rome comes the small horn, taking out three of the horns. IMO this is the British Empire, taking out its three main competitors, France, Spain and the Netherlands. The blaspheming horn becomes huge, becoming the Anglo-American Empire. Above prophecies follow the course of history, so the information from God's book of truth is reliable (cf. Dan. 10:21).
This is the background. Now we come to the book of Revelation. The Revelation beasts would follow the same pattern and I view these as a continuation of the Daniel beasts. Put them all together and you have the full picture, history in advance. The full compliment of Satan's political system is to come to an end, to make room for God's kingdom. I like to work with Biblical definitions, e.g., the antichrist. I prefer John's definition, and not those who want to make up their own definition and meaning. As to the origin of the beasts, the following helped me:
From the sea: Isaiah (27:1) describes how God will execute the elusive serpent or sea monster. According to BDBLex the mighty, multi-headed “Leviathan” symbolizes world-powers, e.g., Egypt (Ps. 74:13, 14; cf. Ezek. 32:2-12). Job (3:8, 9; 26:12, 13) refers to it as the fleeing serpent or eclipse dragon. This concept was further developed by later writers. Daniel’s four beasts come up from the sea (Dan. 7:2, 3). One of Revelation’s beasts also comes up from the sea (Rev. 13:1). What does the sea picture in these instances? Isaiah (57:20) explains: “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” [This is the sea that will be no more (cf. Rev. 21:1).] In confirmation of this, the harlot, riding the scarlet-colored wild beast, is also described as sitting upon “many waters” (Rev. 17:1-3). Again, what is the meaning of the “many waters”? One of the angels with the seven bowls explains: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues” (Rev. 17:1, 15).
From the earth: The false prophet is also called beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11; 16:13). What does earth mean in this instance? Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image had legs of iron, yet feet and toes mixed with iron and an earthy substance, clay. Hard and unyielding iron points to dictatorial, totalitarian regimes, whereas brittle clay pictures aging democratic structures (cf. Dan. 2:41-43). The governments represented by the false prophet, i.e., the Anglo-American empire, originating from the earth, would mainly consist of democratic elements (cf. Dan. 8:23, 24). During the First and Second World War, it would be this earth that would come to the aid of God’s woman and her children [= those of His anointed on earth] to save them from the serpent’s deluge of persecution (Rev. 12:15, 16).
From the abyss: In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. The abyss can be favorably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). God allows the beast to come up out of the abyss (of inactivity) (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). But who is it that controls the abyss? A star (or angel) of God has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a plague of locust-scorpions, the soldiers of the beast, to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in this abyss (of inactivity) for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
Revelation discusses God's day of wrath. Not one day but a period of time. In it will take place God's judgments and the execution thereof. As you will see, the following is to take place before Armageddon, the finalization of God's day of wrath, not one day either (Rev. 6:16, 17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15).
If you read the scriptures in Joel and Acts you would have worked it out. Those scriptures have only been partially fulfilled in the 1st century. E.g., the heavenly phenomena. Note the apostles translated "In the afterwards" (Joel) as "In the last days" (Acts). This all "before the illustrious day of Jehovah arrives." I see a Christian revival in other scriptures to do with the "two witnesses," but that's another story. Suffice to say, God will unite His people. I believe it will happen soon:
28 And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see.
29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.
30 And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.
32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.
(Joel 2:28-32)
17 And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams;
18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist;
20 the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
(Acts 2:17-21 NW)
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
As I said, you're conflating scriptures. Days of the tribulation? Jerusalem was a tribulation for the Jews for three and a half years, give or take a few months. This one coming is the greatest tribulation ever! It cannot be compared to Jerusalem's fall. It will be much, much worse. Now we come to your forty two months. God's people will be protected from the trumpet blasts and plaques (cf. Rev. 7:9, 14). Temple is measured and belongs to God. But the leadership of God's people (the dining rooms of the priests were in the courtyard) will be persecuted for 42 months. Half of them will be killed (cf. Zech. 14:2). Nevertheless, you cannot conflate these scriptures without good reason. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
con•flate \kən-ˈflāt\ verb transitive
con•flat•ed; con•flat•ing [Latin conflatus, past participle of conflare to blow together, fuse, from com- + flare to blow—more at BLOW] 1610
1 a: to bring together: FUSE
b: CONFUSE
2: to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole
con•fla•tion \-ˈflā-shən\ noun
15th century: BLEND, FUSION especially: a composite reading or text
Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
Duran, if you can present me a scripture that says the GT is 42 months, I'll believe. The scripture you are referring to, says nothing of the sort. Note what it says: "And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it." (Rev. 13:5 NW) Nothing about the GT there. And that the GT might be cut short, is clearly stated at Matt. 24:22; Mark 13:20.
Where do I get my 7 years from? Mainly from the book of Daniel as I'll demonstrate. It's quite a mouthful. Each segment on its own might be lacking coherence and seem unconvincing, but as a whole the different aspects do contribute to a complete picture.
First clue: God works in heptads, i.e., sevens. E.g., creative days. 3 ½, half of that, means unfinished business.
Second clue: The outer courtyard of the temple sanctuary, a part of the Israel of God, is to be trampled by the nations for 42 months. IMO this will happen during the second half of the GT. See later. (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 11:2; cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 2:21, 22).
Third clue: Daniel’s time, times and half a time, which is 3 ½ years. Daniel’s “time, and times and half a time” covers the second half of the Tribulation because at the end of it the eleventh horn, having plucked up three horns, is destroyed at Armageddon (Daniel 7:8, 21, 25; cf. 12:7).
The two prophets will be prophesying for 1,260 days. Their public ministry will start immediately after the sixth trumpet blast (Rev. 9:13; 11:3). 1,260 days will then overlap with the 42 months of trampling, which starts in the middle of the Tribulation period. They will be announcing the 10 plagues, which will be starting during the 6th trumpet blast (Rev. 9:18, 20; 15&16).
Fourth clue: Second half of Tribulation is 1,260 days. Daniel 8. Vision of the 2,300 evening-mornings. To cut a long story short. Evening-morning: 1) The two nouns are singular. 2) Lit. an “evening-morning” time unit (not time, year or day), resulting in a most unusual time scale. 3) Evening in Hebrew means when the sun goes down. Morning means first light, when the sun comes up, until midday when the sun is at its zenith. Afternoon, when the day starts to fade, is not part of the equation. 4) One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days. This literal interpretation does not deviate from Hebrew usage (Ex. 12:6, 10; 16:8-13; 27:21a; cf. 1 Kings 17:6).
I view the trumpet blasts and plagues as the GT proper. That means 7 trumpet blasts x 180 days = 1,260 days. Same goes for the vials of plague, 7 vials x 180 days = 1,260 days. The calculation therefore works as follows: 360 days + 1,260 days + 105 days = 1,725 days, i.e., 6th and 7th trumpet blast + second half of GT + Day of the LORD = 1,725 days.
Fifth and final clue: Dan. 12:11, 12
The final chapter of Daniel should be seen within the context of the Great Tribulation, this from the vantage of the victorious King of the North (cf. Dan. 11:40-44; 12:1, 4, 7, 10). The sum of the two periods of Dan. 12:11, 12 is longer than a Heptad. As seen, a Heptad is 7 years or 2,520 days long. 1,290 days + 1,335 days = 2,625 days. 2,625 days – 2,520 days of the Great Tribulation = 105 days. This is the equivalent of 3½ months (the end of the Tribulation to Armageddon, the closing chapter called the LORD’s Day). See Zech 14:1, 6, 7. According to this reckoning the beast will become king on day 1,290. I see its reign to be less than 1,335 days, during which it will be destroyed (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11).
Duran, there will be a repetition of celestial events: Seal 6: Rev. 6:12-17. Fourth trumpet blast: 8:12. During Jesus' Second Coming: Matt. 24:29. Armageddon: Zech. 14:6, 7.
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
Duran, the context places this occurrence after the sixth seal. According my timeline this will take place at the beginning of the GT. During this time the 144,000 will be sealed. I agree, they will be hiding there until after the GT, where they will most probably be entombed.
For me the horses has started their gallop at the beginning of the First World War. At the end of the war we had the Spanish Flu. In 1933 the world experienced the Great Depression. Then came the Second World War. So they have been galloping right into the 21st century. According to historians there have been no year since then free from war. Now the world seems to be on the verge of a great conventional war, if not World War III.
As already stated, I believe the GT to be seven years in length, unless the days have been cut short. Signs in sun, moon and stars will happen often. After the breaking of the sixth seal, after the fourth trumpet blast, during Jesus' Second Coming and during Armageddon. After the GT Jesus comes. He will fetch his saints, his marriage in heaven and then Armageddon, according to natural Revelation progression.
Again, just a thought on verb "worship:"
To give one’s honour and allegiance to a higher power. To “express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority.” See Louw-Nida. To “express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission” to a high authority figure or organization, in this case the beast, its image as well as the dragon (cf. Rev. 13:8, 12, 15; 14:11;16:2; 19:20; 20:4; cf. 13:4). See BDAG.
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
PetrW, yes, I believe this is what is explained in Chapter 13. The combination beast includes previous empires closely associated with Israel. Seven heads: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, British Empire (later Anglo-American).
The combination beast from the sea is a conglomeration of Daniel’s four beasts (except for Egypt and Assyria). This beast would have a limited lifespan of 42 months. Head with mortal wound is the British Empire, economically on its last legs. Soon afterwards the damaged head is healed. The US comes to the assistance of the UK by declaring war on Germany and entering World War I on April 4, 1917. The healed head now becomes the Anglo-American World Power. This beast with healed head would be active for 42 months = 3½ years, from April, 1917 to November, 1920 (cf. Rev. 13:1-3, 5).
A major product of the Paris Peace Conference is the Covenant of the League of Nations, submitted in a first draft February 14, 1919, and finally approved, in a revised version, April 28, 1919. The League was officially brought into being January 10, 1920. The first meeting of the Assembly of the League takes place on November 15, 1920. This date marks the dissolution of Beast from the sea as the image of the beast becomes active (13:11, 14, 15).
As an image it turned out to be useless, ceasing operations April 20, 1946. This peace-keeping organization had attempted to take the place of God’s Messianic kingdom. Thus, in God’s eyes the image of the beast would be “an abomination” (13:14; cf. Dan. 11:31; 12:11). From the standpoint of the angel (and God), this man-made “abomination” amounts to a pathetic nonentity. True to form, it would disappear from sight in the clouds of World War II: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer” (Rev 17:8a NAB). So, as for the League of Nations, the emphasis would be on the “abomination”-part.
After the 42 months two things would have happened. The healed head of Beast from the sea would become Beast from the earth. A powerful confimation of this is Rev. 13:13, e.g., Direct Energy Weapons or DEWs. Not bad for a 2,000 year prophecy. This new beast insists on making an image, i.e., the League of Nations. Later breath was given the image, and it became a beast in its own right, i.e., Beast from the abyss or UN (in the abyss = inactive; out of the abyss = active).
So, in contrast to your elaborate constructions, I believe all the pieces of the chessboard are in place for the Great Tribulation to commence. Another interesting prophecy soon to be fulfilled is this one: "Then the kings of the earth, the officials and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and in the rocks of the mountains" (Rev. 6:15 CEB).
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
PetrW, yes, the beasts are related. They are the creations of the Dragon, Satan the Devil. But I am wary to conflate the scriptures unless there's very good reason for it. There's a reason why "the sea" and "the abyss" is used. It is not the same thing. The Society does the same.
I believe, In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. Here's what a dictionary says of the abyss:
The abyss (Hebrew: תְּהוֹם; Greek: ἄβυσσος) can be favourably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). A star (or angel) has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a locust-scorpion plague to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). God also allows the beast to come up from the abyss (17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in the abyss for a thousand years (20:1-3).
The following is what I wrote to the Society. They argued that Rutherford and Co. were the "two witnesses," between 1914-18. I argued that's impossible. Beast from the abyss did not exist as yet. They obviously didn't like my criticism for I was disfellowshipped for my trouble:
A first fundamental flaw of the Watchtower interpretation of the two witnesses is the fact that they distinguish between Beast from the abyss of Rev. 11:7 and the scarlet-colored wild beast of 17:8; 18:1.
Most agree 17:8 and 18:1 refer to the same beast. In addition, in 17:8 the beast “is about to ascend out of the abyss,” whereas 11:7 describes the beast “that ascends out of the abyss.” These two are one and the same, the abyss and the state of the beast’s ascension being the common denominators.
A second shortcoming in their reasoning, compounding their error, is their belief that 11:7 and 17:8 follow in chronological order, which is clearly not the case.
In a footnote of Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand! (p.167) we discover some special pleading in order to justify their belief. Here the emphasis is craftily placed on the Hebrew instead of the Greek:
The “abyss” (Greek abyssos; Hebrew, tehohm’) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. (Ps. 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” Thus “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with “the wild beast ascending out of the sea.”
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62
Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts
by Duran inrevelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.
what beast is the 8th king?.
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Vidqun
Let me start here. One must first decide on the sequence of Revelation and where everything fits in. This is how I see it. Then I'll take it from there. I do believe the beasts would have appeared during the breaking of the first three seals. Most things are already in place.
PetrW, I'm with you till "This is my basic view of the beasts of Rev 13 and 17. It is one and the same beast." Here I disagree. 1) Beast from sea. 2) Beast from earth. 3) Beast from abyss. Three beasts. And I compare "earth" of Revelation with Daniel's clay (in iron and clay part of image). Same substance. I think you "overthink" things. I go for Occam's Razor, i.e., simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.
Revelation 1:1-20 Prologue: The Day of the Lord
2:1-28 Messages to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum and Thyatira congregation
3:1-22 Messages to Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea congregation
4:1-11 Beginning of the Lord’s day: God’s throne
12:1-17 Dragon and his angels expelled from heaven
13:1 Dragon on sea shore
13:2-18 Beast from the sea, Beast from the earth (the false prophet) and Image of the beast
17:8-14 Scarlet-colored wild beast
5:1-14 Scroll with seven seals
6:1-17 Breaking of the seals
7:1-8 Hundred and forty four thousand sealed
8:1-13 Seventh seal: Trumpet blast one to four
9:1-12 Trumpet blast five (1st Woe)
9:13-21 Trumpet blast six (2nd Woe)
11:3-6 Start of public ministry of two witnesses
10:1-11 Angel with feet on earth and sea
11:14-18 Trumpet blast seven (3rd Woe)
11:1 Measurement of earthly temple
11:2 Earthly temple courtyard trampled by nations
11:19 Heavenly tabernacle opened
15:1-8 Preparation of the plagues
16:1-11 Plague one to five
11:7-13 Death of the two witnesses
16:12-21 Plague six and seven
17:1-7 Identification of Babylon
17:15-18 Fall of Babylon
18:1-24 Mourning for Babylon
7:9-17 Great crowd survives Tribulation
14:6-13 Three final angelic warnings
19:1-10 Wedding of the Lamb
14:1-5 Hundred and forty four thousand
14:14-20 Summary of Armageddon
19:11-21 Armageddon
20:1-15 Christ’s millennial rule
21:1-27 During the millennium. New Jerusalem.
22:1-21 Epilogue
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Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?
by Vanderhoven7 inwhat evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.
45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.
46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .
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Vidqun
Duran, I'm afraid I have to agree to disagree. I don't see it like that. But we have gone off topic somewhat. This is the stuff of a new thread.
Vidiot, you've got a point. The slave should feed the domestics, not rule over them. Simlar problem existed in the first century congregations:
8 YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings. (1 Cor. 4:8 NW)