Posts by Vidqun

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

resulute Bandicoot, there's two prophecies that stand out for me. Keep in mind, the prophecy is nearly 2,000 years old: "And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." (Rev. 13:13). I am sure you have heard of DEWs: "A directed-energy weapon (DEW) is a ranged weapon system that inflicts damage at a target by emission of highly focused energy, including laser, microwaves and particle beams." See Wikipedia.

And how did John know the leaders of the nations have hidey-holes in the rocks: "And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains." (Rev. 6:15). John actually recognized that the prophet Isaiah penned a similar prophecy a few hundred years before him: “Enter into the rock and hide yourself in the dust because of the dreadfulness of Jehovah, and from his splendid superiority” (Isa. 2:10). Not bad for a guy tripping on magic mushrooms!

Duran, I would first suggest we distinguish between religious and political apostasy. First we have to get God's people together as discussed earlier. Hopefully it wll happen sooner than later (Joel 2:27-32; Acts 2:17-21). In the straits of the times the 144,000 will be sealed. According to the context, this will happen after the sixth seal (Rev. 6:17; 7:1-3). These must come out of the Israel of God which have to exist as such (Gal. 6:15, 16). Within the Biblical context "apostasy" is here used in a religious sense. Note what Wiki says:

Apostasy (Greek: ἀποστασία, translit. apostasía, lit. "defection, revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to one's previous religious beliefs. One who undertakes apostasy is known as an apostate. Undertaking apostasy is called apostatizing (or apostasizing – also spelled apostacizing). The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean the renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense, with no pejorative connotation (Wikipedia).

Enter the "man of lawlessness." This group will be infiltrating God's people similar to the group that infiltrated first century Christians after the death of the apostles. As you rightly pointed out, apostasy is also used in a religious sense by Daniel (11:34). The ranks of the Maskilim ("those with insight") are to be infiltrated by “smooth ones”: “But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness [out of treachery, NAB].” Here the context indicates religious apostacy: "give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant" (v. 30). "And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words." (v. 32). "refining work because of them and to do a cleansing" (v. 35; cf. 12:10)

This indicates difficult times ahead for God's people. This is brought out by an angelic vow in Daniel's epilogue: "... that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished." (Dan. 12:7 ESV) With this information one can almost construct "the prophetic history of God's people during the Tribulation." This is expanded by the 2,300 evening-morning vision of Dan. 8.

Now for your questions: Sorry for the repetition, but I thought it necessary.

1) Subsequently, each time he mentions the mark and a person's fate, he qualifies it with "worship" (Rev. 13:16, 17; cf. 14:9, 11; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4). Just receiving the mark will not condemn a person. The "worship"-part will. What does "worship"mean?

Worship: To give one’s honour and allegiance to a higher power. To “express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority.” See Louw-Nida. To “express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission” to a high authority figure or organization, in this case the beast, its image as well as the dragon (cf. Rev. 13:8, 12, 15; 14:11;16:2; 19:20; 20:4; cf. 13:4). See BDAG.

2) According to my understanding of Daniel and Revelation, the "man of lawlessness" wll come in power during the first half of the Tribulation (cf. Dan. 8 and 12) when the continual sacrifice is banned (continuity or continual sacrifice = Rom. 10:10-15; Heb. 13:10-16; cf. 1 Cor. 10:20, 21).

3) 1 Pet. 4:17 Not sure of this one. Let me think about it. I would think Mal. 3:1-3 would have something to do with it. Jesus also inspected the literal temple while on earth and threw out the money changers. But the when is the difficult part.

4) Hour of judgment. Within the context and general scheme of things, this final warning would be given, therefore must be referring to Armageddon. Just after this announcement, a summary of Armageddon is given.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Kosonen, I did explain my view and why I believe it to be so. I don't want to repeat it. if you feel you must refute what I have to say, do so, but with specifics. I don't approve of generalizations that doesn't go anywhere.

If that's how you want to interpret it, go ahead. But you are not taking the facts in consideration. It happened in Paul's day and it will happen again. I don't see any mention of the antichrist in the passage under discussion. People are quick to label a variety of things as the antichrist. Do yourself a favor and look up the Biblical definition of antichrist in John's writing. A lot of people qualify (1 John. 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7).

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

It won't be because of natural catastrophes that the UN is given authority it will be because of WW3. And yes, there will be the use of nuclear weapons to some degree.

Duran, I am not convinced that God will allow the nations to wage WW III or even a limited nuclear war. But I cannot be dogmatic about it. I do not know what God will allow or disallow. I just don't see it brought out in prophecy in a clear way. IMO what will bring the nations together is the natural catastrophes described in Revelation.

The MOL is the same as the 8th king/KOTN/disgusting thing.

Here I disagree. The man of lawlessness was already present in Paul's day (2 Thes. 2:7). It is described as an "apostacy" (v. 3). As soon as the restraint of the apostles are removed, when they die, he will be revealed (v. 7). This is an internal development amongst God's people. He will set himself up in God's temple, built with living stones (v. 4). The characteristics of these people are summarized in the same chapter (vv. 10-12). This hppened in the past and will be happening again. Jesus will personally deal with them during his Second Coming (v. 8). Nothing to do with the eighth king, which is a political entity.

That is not how those Scriptures truly read. Are you not conflating here in this case?

No, actually the only thing that I wanted to emphasize was that people will see what is happening and that they will react accordingly, i.e., "their hearts will faint out of fear."

Perhaps what you should do, is explain your sequence with a plan of Revelation, as I demonstrated earlier. How do you see it playing out? Do you recognize the natural chronology of the book as we have it today, not at all, or only certain parts? For example Beast from the abyss is still in the abyss at Rev. 17:8. It is out of the abyss at 11:7. So 17:8 comes before 11:7. Here it does not follow natural Revelation chronolgy. Another example. 7:9, 14 speak of people coming out of the tribulation, therefore I would see 7:9-17 as an insert. Same goes for 11:14-18.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, you sound terribly sure of yourself. Surprisingly, you refer to the Society as an authority. They don’t know whether they are coming or going (reminds me of Biden). There’s nobody left in their ranks that can write authoritatively about the GT or the book of Revelation. First on their list is the fall of Babylon the Great as the beginning of the GT. I have it under good authority that that will only happen during the seventh vile of plague. And they couldn’t even foresee the vaxxes as being detrimental to a person’s health. I really couldn’t care less about their opinion.

If WW III doesn’t materialize, will your hypothesis survive? Have you read about the breaking of the sixth seal and the first four trumpet blasts? I can assure you these do not describe WW III. So what do you think is being described there? These follow on each other's heels. The breaking of the seventh seal introduces the angels with the trumpets. The angel blowing the seventh trumpet introduces the angels with vials of plague.

Yes, a lot of people have died prior WW I. But as a student of history, what we had there is something unusual. Historians call it the Great War. Most of the existing nations at the time were drawn into the fray. Here we are also introduced to modern warfare, including aeroplanes, machine guns, tanks, submarines, trench warfare, mustard gas, etc. That’s why it is referred to as the First World War with its millions of fatalities.

Word War II would even be worse. Again most nations would become involved. Here now another phenomenon sees the light, called the military-industrial complex. This industry produces the atomic bomb. The Americans were so kind as to demonstrate the new weapon. From there came missiles, jetfighters, the Hydrogen bomb, etc. Now man is in a position to destroy the earth and everything on it. Question is: Will God allow it? What comes to mind here is Ps. 2. The nations are vying for power. They forget that God and His Son will soon be in charge. You either submit to them or you are destroyed (Rev. 11:18; cf. Ps. 110:1-3).

Another time indicator for me is the term “Day of the Lord” (Rev. 1:10). When did it start? My bet here is on the beginning of the nineteenth century and the breaking of the first three seals.

The book of Revelation revolves around a period called the Day of the Lord. John uses an inclusive phrase ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ “in the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10a), indicating that all Revelation visions are included in this day. The context points to Jesus Christ as the Lord whose “day” it is. Immediately after finding himself in spirit “in the Lord’s day,” John heard, not the voice of Almighty God, but that of His resurrected Son (Rev. 1:10-19 NET).
The Lord’s Day, i.e., Christ’s day, is intimately connected to: 1) Christ’s royal presence as God’s king designate (Greek noun is παρουσία, translit. parousia: Matt. 24:3, 37; cf. 2 Thes. 2:1, 2), 2) Christ’s Second Coming (Gr. verb is ἐρχόμενον, translit. erkhomenon: Matt. 24:30, 31; 25:31, 32) and 3) Christ’s millennial kingdom rule = royal administration, translit. Basileus > basileuou (Luke 1:33; 1 Cor. 15:25; Eph. 1:8-10; 1 Tim. 6:14, 15; Rev. 1:5; 20:4, 6).

Rev. 6:8 is not the only time a lot of people will perish. Take note, the during the sixth trumpet blast a third of the men will die. Will the riders of the fourth seal, Death and Hades, carry on into the GT? Then the quarter is part of the third. But if the quarter dies before the sixth seal, then there lies ahead another culling, i.e., a third of the survivors.

PetrW, certainly an interesting take on things. As might be obvious by now, is I started with Daniel, and a lot of my conclusions are based on what I found there. Today, a lot of talk about the building of a third temple. Now that will trigger WW III for sure. So that's not something I believe in. God's new temple is going to be built with living stones (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). Interestingly, there is a clue in Rev. 11 about the two witnesses. Rev. 11:4 quotes Zech. 4:14. Now the governer Zerubbabel, the high priest Jehoshua were given the responsibility to build the temple. So too, the two witnesses will assist in the building of God's new temple. I believe a lot of our questions will be answered by the two witnesses. Looking forward to read your take on Babylon the Great.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

PetrW, glad there are some points of agreement. But what I miss from your post is your interpretation. What do you think it all means? How is it all going to play out? Or are you still working on your hypothesis? Because that is all we can do at this stage: Work out a hypothesis according to available data. Put in into a theoretical construct and apply the data in real time. Then allow for the repetition of the experiment and/or peer review and see if it holds up to scrutiny.

The biggest difference between my hypothesis/theory and those presented is the fact that all my pieces are in on the chess board. Now I am watching them manoeuvre to their assigned places. And the more I watch events unfolding, the more convinced I am, I am on the right track.

For example, you are uncomfortable with earth/clay suggestion. To me it fits well into the overall picture. It is what we are seeing and experiencing at the moment:

Potter’s art work vs. Democratization: At the formation of the feet and toes of the statue, the first stage would call for iron ingredients to be mixed with wet clay, for these to be moulded into shape (cf. טִין). The second phase would call for the image to be kiln-baked or sun dried (cf. חֲסַף). Now the clay would be become rock hard, i.e., ceramic. As the image would be growing older, the weight of the image would cause the clay component to become brittle. During the initial stages of the democratization process, (government) structures would be soft, malleable and pliable, like wet clay. After a time of experimentation and implementation, these structures would mature and become established, i.e., the ceramic stage. As these grew older, becoming more liberal and top-heavy, i.e., badly balanced or proportioned, or heavily indebted, these would become brittle.

The iron part of the image stands for autocratic governments. Is that not what we are seeing today? For example China and Russia, as multipolar nations (BRICS) vs. unipolar nations (West) give rise to a bipolar world. And on such a shaky foundation stands the image. Even without the help of the stone, it would have toppled and broken in any case. The image sums up the current situation in a most excellent way.

Duran, it took me a while to work out your view. I believe in the inspiration of the Bible, so I believe in all those scriptures, with just my interpretation that differs. But now that you explained it, I am with you.

As I explained to PetrW, my interpretation method uses history and current events. I try and follow the logic. But is by no means perfect or the last word in interpretation. This is what I wrote to someone else: “Of God Paul exclaims: “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments [are] and past tracing out his ways [are]! For who has come to know Jehovah’s mind, or who has become his counsellor?” (Rom. 11:33, 34; cf. Is. 40:13, 14, 28b) I do not have special esoteric knowledge as to the workings of the divine mind, as some claim. I can only work with what I have. I do believe things will be made clear in the near future, especially with the arrival of the two witnesses, and even before then.

If you do not believe the horsemen have started with their gallop, that’s fine by me. But recent and unique history does fit the evidence. But that’s the difference between us, my pieces are on the board. You are still waiting for your pieces to arrive on the scene. And that is the case with many modern exegetes.

Even if WW III breaks out now, that would be a continuation for me of the galloping horses. And I work out the quarter of fatalities since WW I. Lot of people have died already from famine, pestilence, war, etc. Agreed it might not be 2 billion as yet, but isn’t that what the GT is all about? When the Bible refers to the GT, in means just that, the greatest tribulation ever. For example, there are mega quakes in the pipeline, amongst other disasters:

Gr. σεισμὸς μέγας, lit. a mega-quake. 1) The earthquake that would occur after the breaking of the sixth seal. These would not flee to underground structures immediately after a great earthquake (Rev. 6:12-17). 2) The earthquake of chap. 8:5. An angel, after scooping fire from the heavenly altar, would throw it on the earth, accompanied by a great earthquake, thunders, rumblings and lightning flashes. 3) The earthquake of chap. 11:13, resulting in the death of seven thousand prominent individuals. 4) The earthquake of chap. 11:19, mentioned alongside “a great hail.” 5) The same goes for the earthquake of 16:17. This will be the biggest one yet, destroying the cities of the nations (v. 18). It will be accompanied by a “plague” of unusually great hail stones (v. 21).

Because of the natural catastrophes ahead I believe the UN will be invited to take over leadership of the nations, to restore law and order. Not sure whether God will allow the nations to use their nuclear weapons. That would ruin the earth and everything on it (cf. Is. 45:18). But I might be wrong .

“After WW1 the LON. After WW2 the UN. With WW3 UN gets authority to become 8th king. (Rev 13:5; 17:13)”

At least we agree on above sequence of events as well as the 42 months of persecution. God’s people will be exempt from trumpet blasts and plagues, but not from the coming persecution. This is confirmed by Daniel’s time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years. When Jesus comes, he will also sort out “the man of lawlessness,” which I believe to be a group and not a specific individual (2 Thes. 2:2, 7, 8).

Kosonen, I can only repeat what I said. For me all pieces are on the board and busy moving. For you things must still happen. You are still waiting for the seven headed beast to appear. To me it is an open and shut case. The current beasts are working to control mankind. We have had a taste of it with COVID lockdowns. That was an exercise, an exercise in control, and they were quite successful. In a report by the International Energy Agency (IEA), it is stated: “The COVID crisis demonstrated that people can make behavioural changes at significant speed and scale if they understand the changes to be justified.” So with some serious natural catastrophes ahead, I think that’s where we’re heading.

When will the GT start? I am wary to put time and date on it. But the Bible is quite clear:

11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs. 25 Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,
26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Lk. 21:11, 25, 26)

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Sorry. Internet outage. Will get back to thread soon. Must catch up first.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

PetrW, coming back to your questions.

1. the Beast ascends into the sea (13:1) whole, including all 7 heads, and the Beast (not the head) is also cast into the lake of fire (19,20).
2. Rev. 1:1 ("what must come to pass") and 1:3 "the time is at hand" delineate apocalyptic events into the future. How is it possible that John is writing about the future but actually sees the past? Real but extinct e.g. Assyria, how does that affect the future?

What does Egypt, Assyria and Medo-Persia got to do with the price of eggs? To answer these type of questions, I always refer back to the book of Daniel. Here God presents us with a world view. First the dream image with its dfferent levels of metal. However you want to interpret it, it comes to an end with Armageddon. Then God's kingdom under Christ Jesus takes over (cf. Dan. 2:44, 45).

Within this context, one finds the vision of the four beasts. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. From Rome comes the small horn, taking out three of the horns. IMO this is the British Empire, taking out its three main competitors, France, Spain and the Netherlands. The blaspheming horn becomes huge, becoming the Anglo-American Empire. Above prophecies follow the course of history, so the information from God's book of truth is reliable (cf. Dan. 10:21).

This is the background. Now we come to the book of Revelation. The Revelation beasts would follow the same pattern and I view these as a continuation of the Daniel beasts. Put them all together and you have the full picture, history in advance. The full compliment of Satan's political system is to come to an end, to make room for God's kingdom. I like to work with Biblical definitions, e.g., the antichrist. I prefer John's definition, and not those who want to make up their own definition and meaning. As to the origin of the beasts, the following helped me:

From the sea: Isaiah (27:1) describes how God will execute the elusive serpent or sea monster. According to BDBLex the mighty, multi-headed “Leviathan” symbolizes world-powers, e.g., Egypt (Ps. 74:13, 14; cf. Ezek. 32:2-12). Job (3:8, 9; 26:12, 13) refers to it as the fleeing serpent or eclipse dragon. This concept was further developed by later writers. Daniel’s four beasts come up from the sea (Dan. 7:2, 3). One of Revelation’s beasts also comes up from the sea (Rev. 13:1). What does the sea picture in these instances? Isaiah (57:20) explains: “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” [This is the sea that will be no more (cf. Rev. 21:1).] In confirmation of this, the harlot, riding the scarlet-colored wild beast, is also described as sitting upon “many waters” (Rev. 17:1-3). Again, what is the meaning of the “many waters”? One of the angels with the seven bowls explains: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues” (Rev. 17:1, 15).

From the earth: The false prophet is also called beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11; 16:13). What does earth mean in this instance? Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image had legs of iron, yet feet and toes mixed with iron and an earthy substance, clay. Hard and unyielding iron points to dictatorial, totalitarian regimes, whereas brittle clay pictures aging democratic structures (cf. Dan. 2:41-43). The governments represented by the false prophet, i.e., the Anglo-American empire, originating from the earth, would mainly consist of democratic elements (cf. Dan. 8:23, 24). During the First and Second World War, it would be this earth that would come to the aid of God’s woman and her children [= those of His anointed on earth] to save them from the serpent’s deluge of persecution (Rev. 12:15, 16).

From the abyss: In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. The abyss can be favorably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). God allows the beast to come up out of the abyss (of inactivity) (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). But who is it that controls the abyss? A star (or angel) of God has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a plague of locust-scorpions, the soldiers of the beast, to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in this abyss (of inactivity) for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Revelation discusses God's day of wrath. Not one day but a period of time. In it will take place God's judgments and the execution thereof. As you will see, the following is to take place before Armageddon, the finalization of God's day of wrath, not one day either (Rev. 6:16, 17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15).

If you read the scriptures in Joel and Acts you would have worked it out. Those scriptures have only been partially fulfilled in the 1st century. E.g., the heavenly phenomena. Note the apostles translated "In the afterwards" (Joel) as "In the last days" (Acts). This all "before the illustrious day of Jehovah arrives." I see a Christian revival in other scriptures to do with the "two witnesses," but that's another story. Suffice to say, God will unite His people. I believe it will happen soon:

28 And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see.

29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.

30 And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.

31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.

32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.

(Joel 2:28-32)

17 And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams;

18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

19 And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist;

20 the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives.

21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

(Acts 2:17-21 NW)

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

As I said, you're conflating scriptures. Days of the tribulation? Jerusalem was a tribulation for the Jews for three and a half years, give or take a few months. This one coming is the greatest tribulation ever! It cannot be compared to Jerusalem's fall. It will be much, much worse. Now we come to your forty two months. God's people will be protected from the trumpet blasts and plaques (cf. Rev. 7:9, 14). Temple is measured and belongs to God. But the leadership of God's people (the dining rooms of the priests were in the courtyard) will be persecuted for 42 months. Half of them will be killed (cf. Zech. 14:2). Nevertheless, you cannot conflate these scriptures without good reason. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

con•flate \kən-ˈflāt\ verb transitive

con•flat•ed; con•flat•ing [Latin conflatus, past participle of conflare to blow together, fuse, from com- + flare to blow—more at BLOW] 1610

1 a: to bring together: FUSE

b: CONFUSE

2: to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole

con•fla•tion \-ˈflā-shən\ noun

15th century: BLEND, FUSION especially: a composite reading or text

Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

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Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, if you can present me a scripture that says the GT is 42 months, I'll believe. The scripture you are referring to, says nothing of the sort. Note what it says: "And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it." (Rev. 13:5 NW) Nothing about the GT there. And that the GT might be cut short, is clearly stated at Matt. 24:22; Mark 13:20.

Where do I get my 7 years from? Mainly from the book of Daniel as I'll demonstrate. It's quite a mouthful. Each segment on its own might be lacking coherence and seem unconvincing, but as a whole the different aspects do contribute to a complete picture.

First clue: God works in heptads, i.e., sevens. E.g., creative days. 3 ½, half of that, means unfinished business.

Second clue: The outer courtyard of the temple sanctuary, a part of the Israel of God, is to be trampled by the nations for 42 months. IMO this will happen during the second half of the GT. See later. (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 11:2; cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 2:21, 22).

Third clue: Daniel’s time, times and half a time, which is 3 ½ years. Daniel’s “time, and times and half a time” covers the second half of the Tribulation because at the end of it the eleventh horn, having plucked up three horns, is destroyed at Armageddon (Daniel 7:8, 21, 25; cf. 12:7).

The two prophets will be prophesying for 1,260 days. Their public ministry will start immediately after the sixth trumpet blast (Rev. 9:13; 11:3). 1,260 days will then overlap with the 42 months of trampling, which starts in the middle of the Tribulation period. They will be announcing the 10 plagues, which will be starting during the 6th trumpet blast (Rev. 9:18, 20; 15&16).

Fourth clue: Second half of Tribulation is 1,260 days. Daniel 8. Vision of the 2,300 evening-mornings. To cut a long story short. Evening-morning: 1) The two nouns are singular. 2) Lit. an “evening-morning” time unit (not time, year or day), resulting in a most unusual time scale. 3) Evening in Hebrew means when the sun goes down. Morning means first light, when the sun comes up, until midday when the sun is at its zenith. Afternoon, when the day starts to fade, is not part of the equation. 4) One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days. This literal interpretation does not deviate from Hebrew usage (Ex. 12:6, 10; 16:8-13; 27:21a; cf. 1 Kings 17:6).

I view the trumpet blasts and plagues as the GT proper. That means 7 trumpet blasts x 180 days = 1,260 days. Same goes for the vials of plague, 7 vials x 180 days = 1,260 days. The calculation therefore works as follows: 360 days + 1,260 days + 105 days = 1,725 days, i.e., 6th and 7th trumpet blast + second half of GT + Day of the LORD = 1,725 days.

Fifth and final clue: Dan. 12:11, 12

The final chapter of Daniel should be seen within the context of the Great Tribulation, this from the vantage of the victorious King of the North (cf. Dan. 11:40-44; 12:1, 4, 7, 10). The sum of the two periods of Dan. 12:11, 12 is longer than a Heptad. As seen, a Heptad is 7 years or 2,520 days long. 1,290 days + 1,335 days = 2,625 days. 2,625 days – 2,520 days of the Great Tribulation = 105 days. This is the equivalent of 3½ months (the end of the Tribulation to Armageddon, the closing chapter called the LORD’s Day). See Zech 14:1, 6, 7. According to this reckoning the beast will become king on day 1,290. I see its reign to be less than 1,335 days, during which it will be destroyed (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11).

Duran, there will be a repetition of celestial events: Seal 6: Rev. 6:12-17. Fourth trumpet blast: 8:12. During Jesus' Second Coming: Matt. 24:29. Armageddon: Zech. 14:6, 7.