But to get back to the Gospels, which you (and modern scholars) view as later fables and embellishments. According to tradition, all the apostles, excluding John who was exiled to Patmos, were killed for their beliefs. Why would anybody want to be killed or be exiled for make believe and/or imaginary stories? I am sure that a martyr would make very sure of the things that he was being martyred for.They must have had some powerful motivations for enduring such tortures.
Posts by Vidqun
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189What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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Vidqun
Jeffro, not sure about your "fact" about the wrong emperor. In this version he wrote to Tiberius Caesar, who governed from 14 until 37 CE. That sounds about right.
It makes sense that there would have been original documents, detailing the events. Rome would have been interested in what's happening in the provinces, and the consuls would have reported to them. To what extent this is based on facts, is an open question. I found it quite accurate, comparing well with the accounts in the Gospels. Interestingly, the prevailing view is that the Christian Acts of Pilate were first devised and published as a confutation to an earlier pagan and anti-Christian work also known as the Acts of Pilate. So such documents were doing the rounds in one form or another.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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Vidqun
The Romans kept accurate reports from their consuls all over the Empire. I find the video Acta Pilate quite interesting and enlightening. The High Priest and Sanhedrin also kept accurate records:
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OPEN LETTER TO THE GOVERNING BODY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
by Raimundo ini wanted to share with you a letter that is circulating in some spanish-speaking congregations.
it is about the covid-19 vaccine and the governing body.
there is an english translation that i got today and i put it in the links.
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Vidqun
No Iloowy, it's not written for people who believe the vaccines are bad. He compared it to eating meat offered to idols. It doesn't mean anything, whether you eat of it or not. Therefore, it should be a decision of conscience and no-one should criticize or oppose your decision, whatever it is.
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NEW WATCHTOWER: TERRYFIED OF THIS VERSE
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/cvomv5lxdk4?si=ab9qkymcdz31bqzz.
some religious people claim that jesus’ words found at john 6:53:"unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" about eating his flesh and drinking his blood set a pattern for the lord’s evening meal because on that later occasion, he used wording that was somewhat similar.
(matt.
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Vidqun
I agree with your reasoning. What did Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) say to the perp? "Do you feel lucky?" Can one afford to gamble in this case? "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:47, 51a; 68 ESV)
Another important reason for the Jesus instituting the evening meal: "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27, 28 ESV) This is something we all are interested in, not just a select few.
IMO the last verse of John 6 also connects the occasion to the evening meal: "Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him." (John 6:70, 71 ESV)
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Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vidqun
Vanderhoven, so where will you place the following? All pre- and post-70 CE?
"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 ESV)
26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken-- that is, things that have been made-- in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. (Heb. 12:26-27 ESV)
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:7, 14 ESV)
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41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vidqun
Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.
Vanderhoven, if I accept your version, then it means Matthew (and Jesus for that matter) lied. I'll stick to Matthew's version. Jesus' Second Coming is definitely a future event (cf. Matt. 24:29-31).
Duran, I see it differently. I follow the natural Revelation sequence in this case. Beast from the sea was first on the scene. It had a limited lifespan:
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5 ESV)
Note now the activities of Beast from the earth. It put up an image of Beast from the sea. In my mind that means that Beast from the sea is no more. It then gave breath to the image, the image now becoming a beast in its own right:
11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:11 ESV)
15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. (Rev. 13:15 ESV)The new beast is identified in Rev. 17 as the scarlet-colored wild beast, i.e., Beast from the abyss.
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41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vidqun
Duran, Revelation has a total of three beasts: 1) Beast from the sea to rule 42 months (Rev. 13:1, 5). 2) Beast from the earth (false prophet) (13:8). 3) Beast from the abyss (scarlet-colored wild beast) (11:7; 17:3, 7, 8). Beast from the sea would have been assimilated by Beast from the abyss because Jesus would dispatch only two at Amageddon, namely Beast from the abyss and the false prophet (19:19, 20).
So, how will we know when the great tribulation begins? When everybody is able to see the signs:
11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Lk. 21:11, 25-26 ESV) -
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vidqun
I believe Matthew's chronological sequence to be accurate. First "the great tribulation," then the Second Coming:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Matt. 24:21-22 ESV)Nothing to do with the siege of Jerusalem:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. (Matt. 24:29-32 ESV)Note the parable of the fig tree. The great tribulation will be accompanied by many signs:
30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (Joel 2:30-31 ESV)This is confirmed by Revelation:
12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. (Rev. 6:12-14 ESV)
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41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vidqun
I view it differently. Here's a few criticisms:
1) There’s no temple in heaven (Rev. 21:22). When John mentions the symbolic “sanctuary” in a heavenly setting, he refers to the tabernacle sanctuary (16:5). The following is God’s new earthly temple, made up with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22).
2) Dual prophecy: "Quite a few Bible prophecies have been designed with a dual message, thus having a double meaning and fulfillment. Most famous of these must be the composite sign of Jesus’ end time prophecy, which deals with the conclusion of the Jewish system, yet corresponds to his parousia at the conclusion of the present system (cf. Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 21)." E.g., "kingdom against kingdom" and "the great tribulation": “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” (Matt. 24:7, 21 ESV). The Jews had a bad time in Jerusalem, but not that bad.
3) Armageddon is between God and “the kings of the whole world.” Megiddo is therefore a world situation and not a place (cf. Joel 3:2).
4) So I view the scorching sun, hunger and tears as things associated with the earth, not heaven, i.e., the new earth in whatever form it takes (Rev. 7:16, 17).
5) The beasts are political entities, i.e., kingdoms or empires, in Daniel, as well as Revelation.
6) The seven trumpet blasts and seven plagues are indeed God's judgments, but in connection with the whole world (cf. Luke 21:35). This is the coming "great tribulation," which should be distinguished from the Day of the LORD and Amageddon (cf. Matt. 24:29-31), to follow.