Posts by Vidqun

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Interesting interpretation, but no cigar. Problem is, neither Jerusalem nor the temple were destroyed by Antiochus III Epiphanes. He profaned it but never destroyed it. And since when is the High Priest referred to as "an anointed one." Don't they use such a phrase in the anointing of a king? And the fact that the Aramaic used in Daniel is what is called Reichsaramaisch or Official Aramaic, originating from Babylon. How on earth would a Maccabean Jew master this ancient diplomatic language?

And funnily enough, no mention is made in the book of Antiochus' Hellenization program. What is mentioned is a prophecy, indicating the uprising and demise of the Maccabees, again quite accurate: "In those times many shall rise against the king of the south, and the violent among your own people shall lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they shall fail." (Dan. 11:14 ESV).

Then I see you did touch on Nebuchadnezzar as the golden head of the statue. Why don't you continue and explain to us the relevance of the different metal layers of the statue? The same goes for the four beasts of Dan. 7. You'll see in connection with these your Maccabean dating falls seriously short.

Contemporary scholars refer to the contents of Daniel as quasi-prophecy, by they almost always revert back to the prophecies of Daniel, the quasi- falling by the wayside. Daniel was also a contemporary of Ezekiel and is mentioned by him. Perhaps you should also put a Maccabean dating on the book of Ezekiel.

The "botched Christian reinterpretation" is right on the money. Jesus started his ministry in the 69th week (7 years + 62 years). At half the week he was cut off. After his death and resurrection, the temple sacrifices would be worthless and cancelled out. He would continue the Old Covenant for Jew and Samaritan for a full week, i.e., seven years. Afterwards the Gentiles, Cornelius and family being the first, would be invited to join the Christian congregation. Actually it's brilliant!

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (Dan. 9:24-26 ESV)

The above is a firm favorite of mine. Note, it describes the fate of Jerusalem. No matter whether you appoint an early or late date to the authorship of Daniel, it happened just like that. It also discusses "an anointed one," the Messiah, to be cut off with nothing for himself. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Then it discusses the destruction of the city: "And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator" (Dan. 9:27 ESV).

This coincides with the Roman invasion and the destruction of the city and temple, whereas the Roman Empire will receive its just deserts in due course. If you work on the chronology of seventy sevens since the reconstruction of Jerusalem, you come up with (70 x 7) = 490 years, the time Jesus are supposed to enter Jerusalem. What a coincidence!

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Well, I personally would not put my life on the line for a fable or hearsay. But as usual, in this line of conversation we have to get back to prophecy. Some wonderful imaginary predictions and prophecies, especially about Jesus, uttered thousands of years before, coming true. What are the odds! Amazing guesswork!

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

But to get back to the Gospels, which you (and modern scholars) view as later fables and embellishments. According to tradition, all the apostles, excluding John who was exiled to Patmos, were killed for their beliefs. Why would anybody want to be killed or be exiled for make believe and/or imaginary stories? I am sure that a martyr would make very sure of the things that he was being martyred for.They must have had some powerful motivations for enduring such tortures.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

Jeffro, not sure about your "fact" about the wrong emperor. In this version he wrote to Tiberius Caesar, who governed from 14 until 37 CE. That sounds about right.

It makes sense that there would have been original documents, detailing the events. Rome would have been interested in what's happening in the provinces, and the consuls would have reported to them. To what extent this is based on facts, is an open question. I found it quite accurate, comparing well with the accounts in the Gospels. Interestingly, the prevailing view is that the Christian Acts of Pilate were first devised and published as a confutation to an earlier pagan and anti-Christian work also known as the Acts of Pilate. So such documents were doing the rounds in one form or another.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Vidqun

The Romans kept accurate reports from their consuls all over the Empire. I find the video Acta Pilate quite interesting and enlightening. The High Priest and Sanhedrin also kept accurate records:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUJGceTH9I&t=1s

15

OPEN LETTER TO THE GOVERNING BODY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

by Raimundo in

i wanted to share with you a letter that is circulating in some spanish-speaking congregations.

it is about the covid-19 vaccine and the governing body.

there is an english translation that i got today and i put it in the links.

Vidqun

No Iloowy, it's not written for people who believe the vaccines are bad. He compared it to eating meat offered to idols. It doesn't mean anything, whether you eat of it or not. Therefore, it should be a decision of conscience and no-one should criticize or oppose your decision, whatever it is.

1

NEW WATCHTOWER: TERRYFIED OF THIS VERSE

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/cvomv5lxdk4?si=ab9qkymcdz31bqzz.

some religious people claim that jesus’ words found at john 6:53:"unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" about eating his flesh and drinking his blood set a pattern for the lord’s evening meal because on that later occasion, he used wording that was somewhat similar.

(matt.

Vidqun

I agree with your reasoning. What did Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) say to the perp? "Do you feel lucky?" Can one afford to gamble in this case? "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:47, 51a; 68 ESV)

Another important reason for the Jesus instituting the evening meal: "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27, 28 ESV) This is something we all are interested in, not just a select few.

IMO the last verse of John 6 also connects the occasion to the evening meal: "Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him." (John 6:70, 71 ESV)

41

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

to me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.

my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.

but steve greg has armageddon down pat.

Vidqun

Vanderhoven, so where will you place the following? All pre- and post-70 CE?

"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 ESV)

26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken-- that is, things that have been made-- in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. (Heb. 12:26-27 ESV)

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:7, 14 ESV)

41

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

to me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.

my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.

but steve greg has armageddon down pat.

Vidqun

Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.

Vanderhoven, if I accept your version, then it means Matthew (and Jesus for that matter) lied. I'll stick to Matthew's version. Jesus' Second Coming is definitely a future event (cf. Matt. 24:29-31).

Duran, I see it differently. I follow the natural Revelation sequence in this case. Beast from the sea was first on the scene. It had a limited lifespan:

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5 ESV)

Note now the activities of Beast from the earth. It put up an image of Beast from the sea. In my mind that means that Beast from the sea is no more. It then gave breath to the image, the image now becoming a beast in its own right:

11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:11 ESV)
15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. (Rev. 13:15 ESV)

The new beast is identified in Rev. 17 as the scarlet-colored wild beast, i.e., Beast from the abyss.