Just to let everyone know in case you are curious about the previous question regarding Paradise Earth, I am almost finished with my notes and plan on posting them soon.
I_love_Jeff
JoinedPosts by I_love_Jeff
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Does forever mean forever?
by I_love_Jeff in1 chronicles 28:9 "and you, my son solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
if you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
is the word "forever" literal or figurative?
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Does forever mean forever?
by I_love_Jeff in1 chronicles 28:9 "and you, my son solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
if you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
is the word "forever" literal or figurative?
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I_love_Jeff
"In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. "
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.htmlAHLB# 2544 (g) -
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Does forever mean forever?
by I_love_Jeff in1 chronicles 28:9 "and you, my son solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
if you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
is the word "forever" literal or figurative?
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I_love_Jeff
1 Chronicles 28:9
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Is the word "forever" literal or figurative? MISTRANSLATION?????
If "one of Jehovah's Witnesses" rejects Jehovah and then comes back to "the Truth", will Jehovah forgive him?
King David seems to think he will not forgive the repentant ones."It is unfortunate that many English bible-versions translate olam with such phrases as “for ever” or “everlasting”. That has led to many misunderstandings. Even the words “permanent”, “perpetual” and “age-enduring” that some bible-translators have used, are misleading. It is clear that olam merely meant “long-lasting” or “for a long time”. And, when it was used of past events or past time, the meaning was something like “since the days of old”.As the NAS Hebrew dictionary defines it, “long duration, antiquity, futurity”. That is not the same as “for ever”. Consider this: Many or perhaps most of the things which are mentioned in passages where the Old Testament Hebrew text has the word olam, have come to their end, a long time ago."
http://www.biblepages.net/hn13.htmIf it were a mistranslation and/or meant to be figurative, how THEN would the term "forever" effect the Watchtower's understanding of the restored earth/Paradise Earth doctrine?
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Which writer explicitly discusses a Paradise on Earth, John Milton or Jehovah?
by I_love_Jeff ina jehovah's witness states: ".
"next, the poetic promises regarding the earths eternality are confirmed as literal by christs own words: at mt.
5:5 christ adopted the words of ps.37 clearly showing that the promise of an eternal earth held true.
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I_love_Jeff
Which Author explicitly discusses a Paradise on Earth, John Milton or Jehovah?
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Which writer explicitly discusses a Paradise on Earth, John Milton or Jehovah?
by I_love_Jeff ina jehovah's witness states: ".
"next, the poetic promises regarding the earths eternality are confirmed as literal by christs own words: at mt.
5:5 christ adopted the words of ps.37 clearly showing that the promise of an eternal earth held true.
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I_love_Jeff
A Jehovah's Witness states: "
"Next, the “poetic” promises regarding the earths eternality are confirmed as literal by Christ’s own words: At Mt. 5:5
Christ adopted the words of Ps.37 clearly showing that the promise of an eternal earth held true. I don’t see even a hint of symbolism in Christ’s words! Christ explicitly stated that God’s will for the earth would certainly come about just as it would in heaven (Mt.6:9,10; Isa.55:10,11. c.f., Mt 19:28; Eph.1:10; Rm. 8:21)."Do any of these verses, listed by this JW, explicitly state a "Paradise on Earth"????
Watchtower - John Milton
11/15/2003 pg. 3
"The 17th-century English poet John Milton had no such pessimistic thoughts. In his epic poem Paradise Lost, he wrote that God created the earth to be a paradise home for the human family. That original Paradise was lost. However, Milton believed that it would be restored—that a redeemer in the person of Jesus Christ would one day “reward his faithful, and receive them into bliss . . . in Heaven or Earth.” Milton confidently declared: “For then the Earth shall all be Paradise.”"
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Why is Paradise Earth to be taken literally?
by I_love_Jeff inwhy do the jehovah's witnesses feel that paradise earth is a literal place?.
i posted this question in yahoo answers if anyone is interested: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150125163818aatmbtr.
why believe poetic promised land prophecy is to be taken literally, but scriptures saying the earth will end must be taken figuratively?
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I_love_Jeff
Thus far I have come up with this info which is very crucial when it comes to the rules of exegesis.
"2. The Literal Principle. We assume that each word in a passage has a normal, literal meaning, unless there is good reason to view it as a figure of speech. The exegete does not go out of his way to spiritualize or allegorize. Words mean what words mean.
So, if the Bible mentions a “horse,” it means “a horse.” When the Bible speaks of the Promised Land, it means a literal land given to Israel and should not be interpreted as a reference to heaven.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-exegesis.html#ixzz3QKZlpJRg4. The Synthesis Principle. The best interpreter of scripture is scripture itself. We must examine a passage in relation to its immediate context (the verses surrounding it), its wider context (the book it’s found in), and its complete context (the Bible as a whole). The Bible does not contradict itself. Any theological statement in one verse can and should be harmonized with theological statements in other parts of scripture. Good Bible interpretation relates any one passage to the total content of scripture."
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-exegesis.html#ixzz3QKZzRVrm
With these two rules in mind, how do the scriptures explicitly show that there will be a literal Paradise Earth indefinitely?
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Why is Paradise Earth to be taken literally?
by I_love_Jeff inwhy do the jehovah's witnesses feel that paradise earth is a literal place?.
i posted this question in yahoo answers if anyone is interested: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150125163818aatmbtr.
why believe poetic promised land prophecy is to be taken literally, but scriptures saying the earth will end must be taken figuratively?
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I_love_Jeff
Argument at hand with a JW:
CLARIFYING ----BAR-I never mentioned that Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69, and Ecclesiastes 1:2-4 referring to “poetic Promised Land”. The question addresses certain passages in the Wisdom Literature used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to prove there will be a Paradise Earth without end.
Psalms 37:11, 29- strongly suggests the Promised Land (described in your Watchtower Library). The term “Forever”, as mentioned in these passages: Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69, and Ecclesiastes 1:2-4, do not necessarily imply Earth as being indefinite. Once again, what I AM referring to in the 2 part question as the “poetic Promised Land”, is discussed in your own Watchtower Library software 2014: Psalm 37:11, 29
Allow me to reiterate:
“‘E´rets can refer to a distinct region or to the territory of a nation, such as “the land of Shinar” or “the land of Egypt.”—Genesis 10:10, 11; 21:21; Psalm 78:12; Jeremiah 25:20.
So Psalm 37:11, 29 might indicate that the Israelites could have been and should have been permanent occupants of the Promised Land. In accord with God’s covenant with Abraham, they could have remained in that territory that God gave them, with generation after generation enjoying his blessings there.” Watchtower 1986 Jan 1 p.31 -
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Why is Paradise Earth to be taken literally?
by I_love_Jeff inwhy do the jehovah's witnesses feel that paradise earth is a literal place?.
i posted this question in yahoo answers if anyone is interested: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150125163818aatmbtr.
why believe poetic promised land prophecy is to be taken literally, but scriptures saying the earth will end must be taken figuratively?
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I_love_Jeff
leaving_quietly, yes of course. This particular study may a take a while, though, due to the JW argument given above. Thank you for your patience. -
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Why is Paradise Earth to be taken literally?
by I_love_Jeff inwhy do the jehovah's witnesses feel that paradise earth is a literal place?.
i posted this question in yahoo answers if anyone is interested: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150125163818aatmbtr.
why believe poetic promised land prophecy is to be taken literally, but scriptures saying the earth will end must be taken figuratively?
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I_love_Jeff
@leaving_quietly-May I use your reasoning in my notes/my counterargument?? -
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Why is Paradise Earth to be taken literally?
by I_love_Jeff inwhy do the jehovah's witnesses feel that paradise earth is a literal place?.
i posted this question in yahoo answers if anyone is interested: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150125163818aatmbtr.
why believe poetic promised land prophecy is to be taken literally, but scriptures saying the earth will end must be taken figuratively?
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I_love_Jeff
Any counterarguments would be greatly appreciated. I am doing a study on this particular response. I have come across some faulty reasoning thus far...................LOL go figure.
Here is what a Jehovah's Witness has to say about the topic:
"You are confusing poetry with figurative expressions. Poetry has nothing to do with whether something is figurative or literal. Only the immediate and greater context determines if something is figurative or literal.
An examination of the verses which state that the earth will exist forever shows that these are explicit & not symbolic. On the other hand, EVERY verse which is used in an attempt to show that the earth will be destroyed is actually in a symbolic context or a hyperbolic comparison (e.g. “I’ll love you till the wind stops blowing”).
The rules of exegesis state that you cannot use symbolic terminology to contradict what is explicitly stated.
First you are incorrect in your claim that the verses saying the earth is forever occur in “poetic Promised Land prophecy” which must not “be taken literally.” None of these verses are found in promised land contexts.
The context of Ps.37:29 contains no mention of any limit to a “land” nor any figurative language.
Ps. 104:5 and 148:3-7 are explicitly speaking of the *creation* of the literal heavens and earth–the cosmos in its totality!!
Ec.1:4 is explicitly speaking literally of the whole earth and its solar and water cycles!!
So these scriptures explicitly show that the literal physical earth will exist forever and that righteous humans will inherit eternal life on it.
There is another obvious error in your statements which skews your interpretation. That is, you state: “Forever and time indefinite can be figurative and come to an end.” This is an erroneous and misleading statement which is only half right.
Yes, the word at 1Kgs 1:31 is OLAM and literally denotes “time indefinite” but it also can carry the connotation of “eternity” depending on the context and parallel texts.
But your statement is false because the Hebrew word for “forever” is ‘AD and always means "eternal" (1Ch 28:9; Ps 19:9; Isa 9:6; 45:17; Hab 3:6; Dan.12:3). This is the word used of the earth lasting “forever.” So God’s Word EXPLICITLY states that the earth will exist "forever" or for "eternity" (‘AD).
Next, you are completely incorrect when you say that poetic verses “referring to earth lasting forever...are not literal, nor refer to Jesus kingdom rule.”
The fact is that EVERY prophetic OT reference to Jesus and his eternal kingdom rule is found in poetic verses. And ALL the verses speaking of God’s eternity are in “poetic” sections of the Bible (See the poetic formatting in RSV, NEB, NIV, NAB, etc.).
For example, look at Ps 45:6 speaking of Christ’s eternal kingdom kingdom rule is found in poetic verses. And ALL the verses speaking of God’s eternity are in “poetic” sections of the Bible (See the poetic formatting in RSV, NEB, NIV, NAB, etc.).
For example, look at Ps 45:6 speaking of Christ’s eternal kingdom rule and the corroborating quote at Heb 1:8: Christ’s throne is “forever and ever.”
Then look at EVERY reference in the OT speaking of the eternity God, of God’s “eternal kingship,” God’s “eternal love” & etc. They are ALL in poetic writings! (e.g., Ps.10:16; 48:14; 52:8; Isa. 57:15).
Are you really going to insist that God Himself, God’s love, or Christ’s rule are not going to literally last “forever” simply because these statements are found in poetic prophecy statements?!!!
Yes the word translated as “earth” (ERETS) can refer to “land” or to a “region.” And your verses demonstrate places where *the context* makes those senses obvious (such as when there is a parallel like: “land and sea”. Or it is used with a possessive: “land of Israel”). At the same time the context is often just as clear that the meaning must be “the earth” for example when there is a parallel like “heaven and earth”; “sun, moon, and earth.” (cf. Girdelstone's “Synonyms of the OT.” The “BDB Hebrew Lexicon.” Vine's “Dict. Of the OT”)
When the word “forever” is used with ERETS, it DEMANDS that the reference be to the “earth.” It would be ridiculously illogical to try and apply this to “land,” since you can’t have just a part of the earth exist forever! So we always have non-figurative contexts stating that the “earth” and “righteous humans” will exist to *eternity* (‘AD). Then we have further evidence with such verses as Ps. 104:5 which combines both the words “time indefinite” (OLAM) and ‘AD: “time indefinite and forever.” This phrase “forever and ever” is a common intensification and denotes an assured and absolute eternity *eternity*. This intensifying doubling of words is ONLY used of something which will literally exist to eternity! (Ps 9:5; 10:16; 21;4; 45:6,17; 48:14; 52:8; 119:44; 145:1,2,21; Dan.12:3; Mic 4:5).
Further, the context of the whole Bible makes it very clear that the earth & humans on it will exist to eternity:
First, a very powerful evidence that the earth will literally last forever is because it was God’s clearly stated purpose. Genesis shows that God’s purpose was to have humans cultivate and live *forever* on a paradise earth (Gen.1:28:2:15-17; Isa 45:18). They would die *only* if they were disobedient, otherwise they would have continued to live forever on earth in accord with God’s will.
Next, the “poetic” promises regarding the earths eternality are confirmed as literal by Christ’s own words: At Mt. 5:5
Christ adopted the words of Ps.37 clearly showing that the promise of an eternal earth held true. I don’t see even a hint of symbolism in Christ’s words! Christ explicitly stated that God’s will for the earth would certainly come about just as it would in heaven (Mt.6:9,10; Isa.55:10,11. c.f., Mt 19:28; Eph.1:10; Rm. 8:21).
The Jews did not have any idea of inheriting a paradise in heaven. Biblical and secular history proves that the Jews up to Christ's time looked to a restored earthly paradise. So when the Jews questioned him about how to “inherit everlasting life,” they were also confirming that the promises found in Psalms were of a literal earth (Mt 19:16; Lk 10:25-27).
Finally, Rev.21:3,4 shows that God’s original purpose would be realized. The ultimate outcome is God will be with HUMANKIND and there will be “no more death.”
So Witnesses base their teaching on what God's Word *explicitly* states.
No matter how hard we may search, we will find no Bible text that contradicts the fact that the earth is eternal. "