@Wonderment If this were a free in-home Bible study, we could start talking about who IS or who IS NOT the one, true Jehovah God, our Grand Creator. The Witnesses are more than happy to point out that an Elohim like Ba'al is "a god" in the same sense that Jesus/Michael is also "a god". It really doesn't matter a whole lot whether a human or a spirit being is considered to be "a god" (as the NWT states at John 1:1). The key is that if you are "a god" in the Spirit World, that makes you Elohim. If you are "a god" in the physical realm, that means that you are NOT Elohim. The concept is simple. A human can be appointed "as" Elohim, or can be said to be Elohim-like, but if you are a human, you CANNOT be a member of the Spirit World with the exception of Jesus who visited the apostles and allowed Thomas to touch his wound. The resurrected Jesus had a solid foot in both worlds, but that would be the only exception. Of course, as you know, the Witnesses say that Jesus' body dissolved, but that's another story for another time. If you want to hear evidence of how Angels of God were put in charge of the Nations, click this link for further information Angels of God (Watchtower of Babel Channel). These are the dudes who are mentioned in Psalm 82 (not human judges). The Targum shows how both terms "Angels of God" and "Sons of Israel" appeared together at one point and then the angels were eliminated altogether in the Masoretic text. Thanks for the interesting discussion, friend.
I_love_Jeff
JoinedPosts by I_love_Jeff
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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I_love_Jeff
@Wonderment-
In Exodus 4.16, Moses is presented serving as "God" (lê·lō·hîm) to Aaron. SIMILE- Moses is not being called A GOD
In Exodus 7.1, Moses made "God," or "a god" (’ĕ·lō·hîm) to Pharaoh. SIMILE- Moses is not being called A GOD
Psalm 45:6, Solomon is addressed as "God (Heb.: ’ĕ·lō·hîm; Greek: ho theós)": “Your throne God forever and ever.” This text was quoted in Hebrews 1.8, applied to Jesus Christ.The king is addressed as God’s representative........Watchtower Library states: (Psalm 45:6) God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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I_love_Jeff
NWT: Psalm 8:5 * Hebrew: 2:7: “You made him a little lower than angels.”
If men are called "godlike ones", according to Jehovah's Witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"
Psalm 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods*, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.
*Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., ʼelo·him′; Gr., the·oi′; Syr., daʼ·la·hin; Lat., di′i; T, “like angels.”
****Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible are human beings referred to the word "Elohim". "Godlike" in Hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים" -
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Sons of God vs Sons of Israel
by I_love_Jeff ina brief overview of how the term "angels of god" mentioned at deuteronomy 32:8 was replaced by "sons of israel.
" textual evidence is explored in the targum and the septuagint versions of the bible.
who were the masoretes and what was their agenda?
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I_love_Jeff
A brief overview of how the term "Angels of God" mentioned at Deuteronomy 32:8 was replaced by "Sons of Israel." Textual evidence is explored in the Targum and the Septuagint versions of the Bible. Who were the Masoretes and what was their agenda? How have Jehovah's Witnesses supported this burial of historical data? God's Divine Council played a significant role in the Bible, and here is yet another fascinating story detailing who they were and what they did.
See links below for further clarification:
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What is the difference between elohim and elohim?
by I_love_Jeff inanother question for jehovah's witnesses.
if the second elohim (אֱלהִים) of psalm 82:1 refers to humans, then what happens when we substitute "humans" as a translation in other verses where elohim (or elim, the other plural for "gods") occurs in the plural?
psalm 8:4-5 what is man, that you (god) art mindful of him?
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I_love_Jeff
Thank you smiddy3
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What is the difference between elohim and elohim?
by I_love_Jeff inanother question for jehovah's witnesses.
if the second elohim (אֱלהִים) of psalm 82:1 refers to humans, then what happens when we substitute "humans" as a translation in other verses where elohim (or elim, the other plural for "gods") occurs in the plural?
psalm 8:4-5 what is man, that you (god) art mindful of him?
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I_love_Jeff
If the second elohim (אֱלהִים) of Psalm 82:1 refers to humans, then what happens when we substitute "humans" as a translation in other verses where elohim (or elim, the other plural for "gods") occurs in the plural?
Psalm 8:4-5
What is man, that you (GOD) art mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him? 5 For you (GOD) have made him (humanity) a little lower than the elohim (אֱלהִים or godlike ones) and have crowned him with glory and honor.
God made humanity a little lower than humans (godlike ones???)? Huh???
Psalm 86:8
Among the elohim (אֱלהִים) [there is] none like unto you, O Lord; neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.
Among humans (אֱלהִים) there is none like Yahweh, the Lord????
Exodus 15:11
Who [is] like unto you, O Lord, among the elim / gods (אֵלִם֙)? who [is] like you, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?
Can you see Moses crying out and saying this after crossing the Red Sea? That Yahweh is greater than other men? The whole point is that Yahweh had defeated the gods of Egypt and was incomparable.
Psalm 89:6 (it's verse 7 in Hebrew)
For who in the heavens can be compared to the Lord? [who] among the sons of the elim / gods (אֵלִם֙) can be likened to the Lord? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones and to be revered by all [them that are] around him.
*Yahweh cannot be compared to the humans (elim) in heaven? He's superior to humans in heaven?No kidding.TeeM states (see link above)"Context rules.
The fox ran fast, the rabbit was held fast, thus ending the fast of the fox.
If you chose only one definition of the word 'fast' then this sentence doesn't make sense.
In this one sentence fast has three different definitions.
1st to move quickly
2nd to be unable to move (the direct opposite of definition 1)
3. to go without eating.
Your premise that elohim can have only mean one thing is to deny the many definitions of elohim.
H430 אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God
The role of a translator is to choose which definition of a word best fits the context.
The role of a reader is to choose the best definition of the word he is reading.
Is the fox moving quickly, not moving at all or is not eating?
Is the rabbit moving quickly, not moving at all or is not eating?
again Is the fox moving quickly, not moving at all or is not eating?
The context denotes which definition is correct.
Picking and choosing scriptures only shows how desperate you are in defending your interpretation of Ps 82
Ignoring context of the scriptures you have chosen only shows how desperate you are in defending your interpretation of Ps 82.
Please pray to Jehovah the only true God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for wisdom and understanding of him. (Eph 1:3, 17)
Jesus at John 10:30-36 helps us to understand Ps 82, when he called the scribes and pharisees 'gods' since they were 'judges and rulers' of the nation of Israel.
edit:
Sorry you are misreading the foot note.
Cross references are for 'parallel thoughts' biographical information; geographical information; citations; direct quotes; etc.
Ps 2:10 has a parallel thought, and is not necessarily the same application.
The parallel thought is judges both non Jewish and Jewish, must judge in fairness and with Jehovah's justice in view.
(Psalm 82:2) ““How long will you continue to judge with injustice And show partiality to the wicked?
(Psalm 82:6) ““I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.”
(Psalm 2:10, 11) “So now, you kings, show insight; Accept correction, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.”
82:2 and 2:10 are similar thoughts in judging.
Where do you get the idea that the Jewish judges are over 'all the nations?
82:8 says: only Jehovah is the judge of all the nations
Thus he is the Judge of not just the nation of Israel, but he will judge of all the kings and judges of all the nations.
The psalmist is asking Jehovah to judge the entire earth in righteousness.
And eventually all human judges will be striped of their godlike authority, as judges they can determine if a person can live or die.
Again, these verses do not mean what you want them to mean. No matter how you twist and turn these verses, Jehovah calls human judges and kings, elohim or 'gods' or godlike. "MY ANSWER TO HIM/HER:Psalm 82 discusses elohim being stripped of their authority of the NATIONS. Where in the Hebrew bible are the judges of Israel in charge of the NATIONS? Read Psalm 2:10-11 read your Watchtower Library. JUDGES OF THE EARTH!!!“Where do you get the idea that the Jewish judges are over 'all the nations?”
YOU and your JW peoples are stating this misinterpretation. See Deut. 1:17Judges of Israel are rendering decisions for the nation of Israel— not the nations of the world as is the case in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32. They REPRESENT Jehovah, they were NEVER called elohim. -
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Are angels allowed to redeem others from all evil?
by I_love_Jeff ingenesis 48:15-16.
15 and he blessed joseph and said, “the god before whom my fathers abraham and isaac walked, the god who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 [the angel] who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers abraham and isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” – .
two-part question:.
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I_love_Jeff
Sounds like Theophany to me. Interesting take on these passages. Thank you.
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Are angels allowed to redeem others from all evil?
by I_love_Jeff ingenesis 48:15-16.
15 and he blessed joseph and said, “the god before whom my fathers abraham and isaac walked, the god who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 [the angel] who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers abraham and isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” – .
two-part question:.
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Are angels allowed to redeem others from all evil?
by I_love_Jeff ingenesis 48:15-16.
15 and he blessed joseph and said, “the god before whom my fathers abraham and isaac walked, the god who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 [the angel] who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers abraham and isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” – .
two-part question:.
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I_love_Jeff
Genesis 48:15-16
15 And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 [the angel] who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” –
Two-part question:
1) Do angels have the authority to redeem all from evil? to bless humans? Are angels allowed to REDEEM others from ALL evil?
2) Grammar-"may he bless"-The form in Hebrew is grammatically singular. If the verses are talking about two different beings, the phrase "may he bless" would be changed to "may they bless". God and the angel are the singular grammatical subject of the request to bless the boys. ("Angels"-Heiser pg 63)
I would think that ONLY Jehovah or Jesus through Jehovah has the power to redeem others from ALL evil.
Powers and Privileges-pg 107-Insight Volume 1
1) Superhuman in power-strength & speed
2) Limitation
3) Minister
4) Their messages contributed toward the writing of the Bible.
I do not see such an authority on their list of powers and privileges in the Insight Book.
Where in the Bible does it state that angels are given the authority to redeem others from all evil?
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Genesis 8:21 is not referring to the whole earth?
by I_love_Jeff ingenesis 8:21 .
"this particular text was written in the wake of the assyrian invasion of judah and the siege of jerusalem by sennacherib in 703-701 bc (20 years after he had already wiped out israel).
here the author resorts to hyperbole (exaggeration) in describing the utter destruction of the land of judah: that is, the destruction of judah is envisioned as the destruction of the whole earth.
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I_love_Jeff
"This particular text was written in the wake of the Assyrian invasion of Judah and the siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib in 703-701 BC (20 years after he had already wiped out Israel). Here the author resorts to hyperbole (exaggeration) in describing the utter destruction of the land of Judah: that is, the destruction of Judah is envisioned as the destruction of the whole earth. 2 Kings 18:13-17 briefly alludes to this destruction."
With this interpretation, how does it effect the next verse? Genesis 8:22 -While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.