perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
yknot - With respect, I'd really prefer open discussion to guessing what you're thinking. When you say "NOPE that aint it" you make it sound like there is a word for word right answer which I've failed to identify. But there isn't.
Are you able to satisfy my curiosity as to why you'd be on FS? No problem if you don't want to.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
N.drew - I think you are basically on target, but we have to be fair and say that there is no official single line. Yes, JWs make a big thing of the earthly paradise, but I think that's just because it's a distinction from what many other religions believe so it tends to come to the fore in discussion. I don't see why location is very important personally.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
yknot - I only went with the dying person as that was the scenario you gave me. And the message does depend to an extent on the recipient. ( No point preaching anything to an atheist unless you can first convince them that it's reasonable to believe in a God - right?)
Nevertheless if you're looking for a generic synopsis then I'll go with "The good news of JWs is the restoration of all things to God by means of his Son's kingdom rule."
But I'm not sure what your angle is. I get the sense you are trying to get me to answer something official that can be shot down. It's not really why I'm here, and I don't mind if someone disagrees with my attempt to summarize it.
I'm compelled to ask why you were in FS yesterday if you feel that you don't have a message worthy of taking to people? To be fair you haven't said exactly that, but that's the vibe I'm getting.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
yknot - not to be pedantic but I would have to know whether the dying person had any foundation in scripture.I don't want to sidestep the question so I'll just suppose a not uncommon scenario if that's okay. Dying person is non-practicing Catholic that believes in God but has no real clue what happens after death. So ...
The good news is that this life is not all there is. There is no fear of eternal torment. The Bible promises a resurrection and the possibilty of a renewed relationship with God on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Someone else might do it different. I guess some would go on about paradise and where it is etc, but I don't think that's very important to a dying person, and there would be no point trying to convert him to some line of thinking as he's dying.
Anyway I know that not everyone is going to agree with the theology, but that's really another issue. I'd prefer not to send the thread off topic by getting into that. If you believe the message should be something different then I respect that, but that's not really what I'm trying to discuss.
wasblind - I guess a little bit of ditto the above. You are right that we should preach the good news about Jesus. No arguments from me there. But that does not exclude the possibility of preaching about other aspects of God's word and promises provided we are clear that all those become yes only by means of Jesus as the Amen. Do JW's do that sufficiently? Probably not. But again IMHO the fact that they do it at all is still an improvement over Christians who never make an effort. That's the way I currently see it anyway.
ziddina - I respect your view. That's an interesting passage to get put off by if I might say. I can think of others that on the face of it are way worse than that. I'm still working on some of those. Anyway I'm a long way from being an atheist for many reasons, but that again would send things off-topic.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
wasblind - I don't go with the drop of poison illustration. It's been a long time since I thought JWs have a monopoly on truth. We don't and nobody has to convince me of that. Furthermore I don't think the Bible indicates that any religion would have absolute truth before the end of this age. Certain truths are important though. For example I think it would be difficult to get close to God and believe in eternal torment at the same time. But mainly I think it is the moral framework that I hold more important, and that moral framework includes certain obligations as Christians - hence the original questions.
The holy spirit cannot be misguided so evidently any error is as a result of human thinking.
The Bible doesn't say that the apostles taught any wrong doctrines ongoing, but it took a while for them to straighten some things out. Let's remember that they taught not just verbal doctrine but also by example. Peter sure didn't set a good one in how he dealt with the Gentiles at one point despite having personally received the "no partiality" vision from God.
It's obvious that anyone searching for the "perfect" religion in an absolute sense is going to end up disappointed. That's why I think it's important to sort out the fundamentally important things scripturally and base decisions on that.
BTW - no "puttin' up with" required - I came here to discuss this so feel free to fire at will.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
Paolo - thanks. Will search on those.
wasblind - I think that article was within last 12 months and I don't have new CD yet. The angle of the article as far as I recall was addressing the fact that Paul prached the "good news about Christ Jesus" rather than the emphasis being "good news of the kingdom". It was basically showing how we preach Jesus in imitation of that, because there is no foundatation without him. They may not have used the phrase "witnesses of Jesus", but that was the basic tone of the article.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
wobble - point taken. And I do sometimes ask that basic question as to whether the Bible canon is the exact sum of what God inspired and wanted us to accept. Is there some truth in the apocryphal books, and are some of the established ones questionable. At present I accept that God is capable of preserving His word as he wanted it, despite who established the canon. But I am open to revision on that one if persuasive evidence is presented ot the contrary.
elderelite - agreed about the preaching. But there is a responsibility for individual Christians to teach and make disciples, so this criterion would have to be met in some way even if not the exact way JWs do it.
phizzy - word of God (see comments above for caveat though)
punkofnice -
Rutherford / Hitler. Agreed there was a measure of appeasement going on. I'm not convinced the intentions were all bad under the circumstances though. Don't get me wrong I'm not a huge Rutherford fan, but I keep an open mind and I can see that he was trying to make life easier for the witnesses at the time. Maybe he misjudged the best way to do that. I don't know. I've never heard anything about JW snitches. If you have references please could you post them. Even then I would have to take the general position as the measure, rather than a small number of isolated cases. But I would like to see it. Blood issue - agreed. It's inconsistent and probably fundamentally wrong. Disfellowshipping - possibly a correct principal badly applied. I don't agree with "anything goes" in the congregation though, I think there has to be some measures in extreme cases and I believe the precedent for that exists in scripture. Share in millitary interests? I'd have to see the evidence. Anyone who has share portfolios might have some money in the wrong place, but I'd be interested to see if there is evidence that such investments have been willfully made.
Preaching unproductive? Maybe, but I have seen people get baptized as a result of door to door. Jesus didn't say how productive the work would be, so I don't think the productivity is a measure of whether it's right or not. The message - agreed - it's not exactly right in all cases, but for those who have no Bible knowledge I think it's still better than nothing.
"If my house was on fire?" - that would be true if correct. Let's just say in my case there is a problem with the drains. If I could relocate to somewhere without the problem I would give it proper consideration, but I'm not yet convinced that leaving the house is the best option.
Lily Pie - nice thoughts. Thanks.
N.Drew - that's a different way to think about Heb 10:25. I'll have to give that some thought.
wasblind - Yes. We should be witnesses of Jesus. I note that WTS must have noted this valid criticism, as there was a WT study to encourage this a few months back. But I agree with your point. The message isn't always quite right.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
Thanks for the welcomes.
I understand the arguments against the "organizational mindset". It's funny that reading Russell's early stuff he wasn't really up for it either. I see some strong parallels between George Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the full cycle that we have come to get where we are as JW's. (I hope some of you are familiar with Animal Farm and understand what I am talking about)
I can certainly reconcile the "love among yourselves" as not requiring organization if I can make the other two work.
Phizzy - I imagine given a couple of your comments that you don't (fully) accept the writings of Paul. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding?
At this time I do accept the whole of the NT and am not prepared to let that framework go. So I feel there ought to be meaning to Heb 13:7,17 above and beyond "House Church" level. But I will concede that Heb 10:24,25 could work based on smaller groups provided one found a group that meets the Christian standards.
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
Thanks for all the replies thus far. Sorry for not titling the post - that was silly. Is there a way to title it in arrears?
Some good points have been made. Sab's was inciteful.
N.Drew - Yes I have long perceived a level of intellectual dishonesty. I am perfectly aware it exists and have struggled to figure out the moral possibilities of its existence. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to find an excuse for it from a moral perspective - merely whether it can or cannot be reconciled from a theocratic/Divine perspective.
I think if someone could have conclusively answered all 3 questions at any point in the past few years I would be somewhere else by now. I know some answers can be given in isolation, but unless someone can explain why one of these points is unimportant from a christian perspective then I'm still working on it.
When I read Franz's book I was very persuaded that he was genuinely Christian rather than apostate. However the least persuasive portion to me was the latter section that did not deal fully with what appears to be a congregational arrangement in the NT.
N.Drew ... are we not gathered here on the forum? ... I have found this forum to be interesting and it confirms/coincides with many of my doubts, but as far as "encouraging one another" ... well ... to be honest not at all. The meetings on the other hand, despite the flaws, do often provide some encouragement (mostly before and after rather than during).
CB - I don't need a perfect church either. But if I adjust my current situation I need to at least feel that I am not trading in for something inferior as far as christian values and practices are concerned.
Elderelite - I feel I am fairly free of any particular mindset ... but who really is?
perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.
1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).
sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.
Perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but I have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.
As an active JW who understands the flaws in WTS doctrine, but believes in the Bible, how do I identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:
1) By this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (John 13:35). Sure I know that not all JWs do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine JWs will NOT kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.
2) Preach the good news. Sure I know other religions try to an extent, but JWs are known for their preaching. One might disagree with the details of the message but I don't want to get into that here. They do certainly direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom.
3) Gather together in worship. I include this one since I understand the arguments put forth in Ray Franz's book, but the NT really seems to be clear that some level of organized worship is required "and even more so as you behold the day drawing near".
I think that's it for now.
I understand some may feel that none of the above are required, but I am not particularly looking for responses on those lines since I am at least convinced about the existence of God and the validity of the scriptures.
This is not an apologist post. I would be genuinely interested to find another form of worship that matches the fundamentals that seem to be required for Christianity as defined in God's Word.
FG
