flamegrilled

Joined

• started 4 topics
• posted 365 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by flamegrilled

• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  ... should have been "more parties than Christ" in case you were trying to look up "parites" in the dictionary :)
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  Tammy - I don't feel there is a contradiction. Christ is the way. Period. But let's just take the command to "gather together". If you believe that it really is not optional in scripture (as I do), and is therefore for our benefit (hence why it's commanded), then more parites than Christ are logically involved in being Christian. I'm not saying whether it's a particular denomination, a "house church", or this forum, the fact is that the condition must be met, and since a person can meet together in isolation then it must involve others.

  So to me the contradiction arises when someone rigidly insists that, since Christ is the way, no one else is involved. That's the way my logic works anyway.

  I am not here as a WTS apologist so I won't argue with the points you make about falling short on certain matters of scripture. All I'm doing is trying to look at the big picture with a clean slate. I happen to have chosen the three points raised in my opening post, since it seems to me that these are clear requirements that ought to be easy to identify in any individual or group. Are they the most important? I'm not saying that. I don't know. But they at least appear not to be trivial, so I chose to start with those. Shooting down JWs on those or other issues doesn't really help address the initial question.

  Wasblind - with respect you've only partially quoted me. I don't mind discussing that, but I know it will send this thread off in all directions and probably get nowhere. I just wanted to stay on topic (or at least close to it). If it helps I do not believe the trinity, but neither do I believe that Jesus is a created angel. We may not as far apart in our thinking as you might imagine.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  Miles3 - yes the morality of war is doctrinal. At its heart so is the exercising of agape love. Sure people of any or no religion do good things. But agape love is based on principle. If you are prepared to kill strangers rather than love them then I think that speaks volumes about true Christian values.

  I'm sorry for your personal circumstance, but in all honesty what you describe has not been my experience. I have mostly seen positive things in the congregations. Sure there is always more that could be done, but I think most people have their heart in the right place. Again this is subjective since it comes down to personal experience, and I don't want to downplay your situation since I have not been through it.

  I don't mean to judge regarding the preaching. I don't think I really have done that in anything I wrote, but apologies to anyone who feels that way. But when you say "That's what they do, or they wouldn't call themselves Christians" I would have to disagree with that generalization. Lots of people and groups call themselves Christian and clearly don't behave as such. We can go through examples but I think most people would agree that calling yourself Christian doesn't make you one. (as per Matt 7:22,23). You're likely right about the way the reporting arrangement is implemented though.

  I'm not looking for a "carbon copy" I assure you. If I was then I wouldn't be having this discussion.

  Regarding the use of a sword I'm not sure that's an entirely convincing argument. Jesus didn't seem to approve of Peter using it on another human.
  
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  wobble - I don't think anyone has ever asserted that God and/or Jesus need witnesses. It's just what they ask us to do.

  ShadesofGrey - regarding war - I respect your point of view. I have wondered about Cornelius. It's not recorded that anyone told him to change his profession. So I understand the argument. Nevertheless on balance I think the principles of "kingdom no part of the world" override. I don't vote for human government - so I'm sure not going to kill for them. Ultimately all will "beat their swords in plowshares" - I don't mind getting a headstart on that even if I have jumped the gun.

  N.Drew - re: your conclusion - I don't know either.

  ShadesofGrey -on your last two posts you are getting into doctrine - trinity, etc. We should probably deal with that on another post at some point.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  wasblind - I don't want to get to bogged down in a Jehovah/Jesus discussion here. I don't disagree with your basic points. However I do believe that we can simultaneously be witnesses for more than one person or thing, and sometimes we can be witnesses for the same person, but with a different objective. In the big picture I believe we must be witnesses for God - and that then requires various ways of presenting the message according to the audience and the time period.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  SweetBabyCheezits - I agree it's important to approach things with a clean slate at the outset. I truly belive I have done that, and occasionaly revisit it again to check the foundation of my faith. It would go off topic to cover that here, but I am quite convinced in the existance of God. I agree with your basic point though.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  Larsinger - I appreciate your point of view. I'm not sure there is enough evidence for your specific application of those scriptures, but who knows?
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  shadow - I agree with much of what you say. It's a constant weighing process to see at what point (if any) the flaws get in the way of progressing in a relationship with God.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  open mind - thanks. I appreciate we are not the only ones who don't fight. It's just one piece of the puzzle is all. If another church did not fight, but also made no effort to make disciples then I would still have a problem with that. So as per my first post for me it's a matter of identifying worship that encompasses all of the requirements not just some of them. Hope I explained that okay.
• 
  238

  Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

  by flamegrilled in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

  1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

  sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  flamegrilled

  ShadesofGrey - I hear what you say. It's often a matter of perspective. I don't doubt people have good Chrsitian friends outside of JWs. I also know that a lot of good practical help is given inside the JW congregations. That's subjective so I won't go listing them here as if to score points since I'm not claiming that individual JWs are the most holy people by virtue of their membership.

  But it is also a question of what is taught. Not taking up arms and killing a fellow Christian is black and white to me. I had the discussion with mormons at the door and they were quite happy to put country over their faith if it came to it, and admitted they would kill mormons in another country. Well immediately I can see that they do not measure up to a true Christian standard according to Christ's words. To me that is not subjective. Any religion that says its okay to kill others (even fellow brothers in Christ) is just a non-starter from my point of view. And that point of view is only based on Jesus' unambiguous command to love one another to the point of death. If a believing Christian wants to correct me on that I'll happily listen to the argument.

  Again this is not a defense of JW faith in it's entirity, but simply to say that for me any alternative would have to share that same tenet.