Posts by flamegrilled

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

ShadesofGrey - who are you refering to in those chapers - Cornelius? Or someone else?

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

ShadesofGrey - "First, one must go to Christ. Then Christ will lead you to the group of people he wants you with. "

That sounds great. I like the idea of it. My hesitance in believing that it is entirely true is due to the pattern set by the early Christians. Are there any examples of converts who established a relationship with Christ in isolation and then he led them to a group? I can't think of any. The gospel was preached and then as people learned the truth about Christ they joined themselves to the church that taught them. (Paul was obviously a special case, but then the Lord approached him, not the other way around).

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

elderelite - "all manner of information"? I haven't asked a single thing except why one person who appeared to be completely opposed to JW teaching would be on FS previous day. I still hold that it was a reasonable question, and once the answer was given I stopped asking.

I don't want to argue about the evident contradiction in the remainer of your post. If you would be so kind then I won't judge you, and I'd expect the same in return.

I've been honest. My motivation for being here is not to make friends (sorry). It's also not to be an apologist for JWs or to trash anyones point of view. I think that must all be obvious from my responses. I am here to explore some interesting views in relation to the honest question posted at the outset. I hope that's sufficient criteria for joining the board and having the discussion. If not then that's no problem. If it's necessary to share a personal history in order to be here then I'd just prefer not. I can respectfully take my leave.

Either way it hasn't been a waste of time. Some interesting ideas have been expressed by a number of posters, so I appreciate that.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

N.Drew - with regards to the maning of "gathering ourselves" it's possible that you are correct. The phrase is only elsewhere used in 2 Thes 2:1 and it means exactly what you say.

Nevertheless, even if that's true the NT is pretty clear that the early Christians had congregation, that teaching took place there, that elders were appointed.

And the scripture also includes "incite to love and fine works ... encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." It's true that could be acheived outside of group gatherings, but overall the scriptures seem to set a pattern for the church that meeting together for these purposes and for instruction is something instituted and encouraged by God. That's the way I read it.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

miles3 -

"Althought hell is a spitefull doctrine, at least you can get out of it after having been punished enough"

I didn't know that. I didn't want to get into these other doctrines here, but since I am ignorrant on this one please could you explain how that works? I thought the doctrine was that once you go there you are there for good. If I am wrong I would like to understand from scripture what the alternative is.

With regards to the rest of your post I can understand your perspective. If you don't believe any of the same fundamentals of scripture that I believe then you are not going to see things my way, and you'll just feel my original question is a moot point. I understand that. So really my question is only directed to people who believe that the the three points are valid in Christian theology and that believe there is a way that one can meet those requirements.

I'm not trying to avoid the argument, it's just not an argument that I need to have, since I have spent a lot of time satisfying myself that the scriptures are valid. I totally respect your right to see things otherwise. Of course I would like to convince you that you are wrong about that, but we'd get into volumes of information that are not related to the topic at hand and it sounds like you have reached your conclusions based on a lot of research anyway, so you just arrive at a different conclusion to me. Yes, I could be wrong, and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do have enough evidence to satisfy myself that abandoning scripture altogether is not the way to go. One thing that I would say in general from my research is I've learned that a lot of things have been recorded about ancient history, and the level of evidence for the "facts"asserted varies wildly. It's really important to peel off the layers and substantiate everything. The number of times I've checked out the "facts" and found that they led to suposition and conjecture is just astounding.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

... should have been "more parties than Christ" in case you were trying to look up "parites" in the dictionary :)

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Tammy - I don't feel there is a contradiction. Christ is the way. Period. But let's just take the command to "gather together". If you believe that it really is not optional in scripture (as I do), and is therefore for our benefit (hence why it's commanded), then more parites than Christ are logically involved in being Christian. I'm not saying whether it's a particular denomination, a "house church", or this forum, the fact is that the condition must be met, and since a person can meet together in isolation then it must involve others.

So to me the contradiction arises when someone rigidly insists that, since Christ is the way, no one else is involved. That's the way my logic works anyway.

I am not here as a WTS apologist so I won't argue with the points you make about falling short on certain matters of scripture. All I'm doing is trying to look at the big picture with a clean slate. I happen to have chosen the three points raised in my opening post, since it seems to me that these are clear requirements that ought to be easy to identify in any individual or group. Are they the most important? I'm not saying that. I don't know. But they at least appear not to be trivial, so I chose to start with those. Shooting down JWs on those or other issues doesn't really help address the initial question.

Wasblind - with respect you've only partially quoted me. I don't mind discussing that, but I know it will send this thread off in all directions and probably get nowhere. I just wanted to stay on topic (or at least close to it). If it helps I do not believe the trinity, but neither do I believe that Jesus is a created angel. We may not as far apart in our thinking as you might imagine.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Miles3 - yes the morality of war is doctrinal. At its heart so is the exercising of agape love. Sure people of any or no religion do good things. But agape love is based on principle. If you are prepared to kill strangers rather than love them then I think that speaks volumes about true Christian values.

I'm sorry for your personal circumstance, but in all honesty what you describe has not been my experience. I have mostly seen positive things in the congregations. Sure there is always more that could be done, but I think most people have their heart in the right place. Again this is subjective since it comes down to personal experience, and I don't want to downplay your situation since I have not been through it.

I don't mean to judge regarding the preaching. I don't think I really have done that in anything I wrote, but apologies to anyone who feels that way. But when you say "That's what they do, or they wouldn't call themselves Christians" I would have to disagree with that generalization. Lots of people and groups call themselves Christian and clearly don't behave as such. We can go through examples but I think most people would agree that calling yourself Christian doesn't make you one. (as per Matt 7:22,23). You're likely right about the way the reporting arrangement is implemented though.

I'm not looking for a "carbon copy" I assure you. If I was then I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Regarding the use of a sword I'm not sure that's an entirely convincing argument. Jesus didn't seem to approve of Peter using it on another human.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

wobble - I don't think anyone has ever asserted that God and/or Jesus need witnesses. It's just what they ask us to do.

ShadesofGrey - regarding war - I respect your point of view. I have wondered about Cornelius. It's not recorded that anyone told him to change his profession. So I understand the argument. Nevertheless on balance I think the principles of "kingdom no part of the world" override. I don't vote for human government - so I'm sure not going to kill for them. Ultimately all will "beat their swords in plowshares" - I don't mind getting a headstart on that even if I have jumped the gun.

N.Drew - re: your conclusion - I don't know either.

ShadesofGrey -on your last two posts you are getting into doctrine - trinity, etc. We should probably deal with that on another post at some point.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

wasblind - I don't want to get to bogged down in a Jehovah/Jesus discussion here. I don't disagree with your basic points. However I do believe that we can simultaneously be witnesses for more than one person or thing, and sometimes we can be witnesses for the same person, but with a different objective. In the big picture I believe we must be witnesses for God - and that then requires various ways of presenting the message according to the audience and the time period.