flamegrilled

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Posts by flamegrilled

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  84

  100 things I learned from watching "The Prodigal Son" DVD

  by Perversion of a truth in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  these are things that were said or insinuated, i start with the first 15.

  enjoy!!.

  1. working for a corporation in the city makes you fall out of the truth.. 2. if you become inactive or leave jehovah you will make your whole family sad and ruin everything.. 3. all worldly people cheat.. 4. all worldly people curse.. 5.

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  flamegrilled

  Weird ... why did my no.23 entry (between maninthemiddle and sir82) get deleted???

  It wasn't anything bad.
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Hence, since from God's point of view no government is "gold", the fact that the statue of the dream has Nebuchadnezzar as the "gold head" can only be understood as his reign being the apogee of glory of the Neo-Babylonian empire, represented by the statue in its entirety. The succession of increasingly poorer materials represents its decadence.

  I don't follow the logic.

  Why "since ... can only be understood ..."?

  Surely the exact same argument applies whether it is Nebuchadnezzar followed by his human successors, or Nebuchadnezzar's empire followed by the successive empires?

  Either way the succession of increasingly poorer materials represents a moving towards something inferior that would ultimately be removed.
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Eden

  But whether it's Nebuchadnezzer's rulership personally or the national rulership, it's still a head of gold. So the same argument applies against seeing it that way from God's point of view.

  I agree that historically it appears to be true what you say about how they treated God's people, but all of those nations suppressed their absolute freedom to worship as God intended. So I don't think the whole thing is about how hostile they were on a scale of 1-10 against God's people, but rather the quality of human rulership in relative terms only.

  Surely no human government is GOLD from God's POV so this all has to be relative in some way. Don't you think?

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Hi Eden

  I've reread your reply more carefully and I understand what you are saying now about the Hebrew and Aramaic. Nevertheless "olam/elam" in relation to kingdom/kingship only has those two instances in Daniel as far as I can see. (There are some toadies in the intervening chapters who say "live forever" to their kings but obviously that is just their custom rather than anything prophectic).

  I just don't see sufficient evidence that the prophecy is not messianic when that is what it appears to be. I totally respect your line of reasoning, but there just seems to be too much weight on the other side of the scales.

  Even if the gold is from God's standpoint I think it can still be understood as the "best" human government was ever going to achive, and it would decline from there.

  Ultimately the gold is proven to be perishable, and the mountain that fills the whole earth is supreme. So regardless of the material and regardless from whose standpoint, there is a clear winner that is shown to be of more enduring value.

  That's the way I see it anyway.

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Hi Eden

  Here I am not nit-picking - only seeking to understand.

  You said ...

  Therefore, you shouldn't limit the scope of "olam" to the aramaic variation of "elam".

  Why would the scope of the Aramaic be limited at all if it is truly synonomous with the Hebrew?

  Do you see what I mean?

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Hi Eden

  Was scratching my head as to whom your comments were directed until I saw your edit.

  You've raised quite a few points. I have company right now, but will try to reply more fully later.

  But in the meantime I'm just wondering why you focus on Hebrew "olam", and say we shouldn't confuse with Aramaic "elam" when the available text is Aramaic?

  Or am I missing something?

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Vidqun - very interesting.

  EdenOne - even though I disagreed with you I appreciate you stimulating some new thought on this passage.
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Vidqun

  Your comments about the absolute autocratic monarchy make me think of something else.

  In the modern day democracy is promoted as the pinnacle of human government, whereas rule by the people is arguably the ultimate outworking of opposition to theocracy.

  So from a theocratic point of view things would deteriorate through these successions of kingdoms whereby the original lie promoted by Satan (I'm talking about a Biblical perspective here, not whether a person believes it or not), that self-rule was better than God-rule, would be held up as the ideal. But in reality it is fragile like iron and clay.

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  flamegrilled

  Hi EdenOne

  I take your points, but in reality the prophecy wasn't really given to the heathen first. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream, but he couldn't even remember what it was. Both the content of the dream and its meaning were both revealed to God's servant.

  As well as being a message of hope of the messianic kingdom to God's people, it is also a message of warning to all human governments that their lifespan is limited. To this extent is it fitting that the warning was given to the heathen king, just as the writing on the wall was given to Belshaazar.

  To be concerned about the fact that Daniel says the head of gold himself is Nebuchadnezzar is a bit of a sidepoint IMO. The king and the kingdom are pretty interchangeable in this context. Again the writing on the wall in chapter 5 was pronounced against an individual, but the fulfillment of the prophecy was against a nation nonetheless.

  FG
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  25

  NEW ARTICLE - Commentary on Daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ive just published on my website a commentary on daniel chapters 2, 3 and 4, concerning nebuchadnezzars dreams of the statue and the great tree.

  its titled: the most high rules over the kingdoms of the world and gives them to anyone he chooses.

  (click the title for link).

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  2. 
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  flamegrilled

  An intriguing suggestion. The primary problem I have with it is whether that rendering of “elam” (or “olam”) can be sustained given the wider context.

  This portion of Daniel is Aramaic rather than Hebrew. The only other place that I can see in which “elam” is applied to a kingdom is Dan 7:14,18,27. And this is most certainly referring to the messianic kingdom.

  It is tempting to read Daniel 2-4 as a connected sequence of events as you have suggested, but I favor viewing the book overall as a double-chaism as proposed by William H Shea in 1986, although something similar was presented at least 60 years earlier by E.W. Bullinger for the Aramaic section (see “The Companion Bible”).

  If this structure is valid then it makes sense that chapters 2 and 7 would both have messianic kingdom prophecies as their themes. Whereas chapters 4 and 5 would rightly be prophecies restricted to the kings of the time (Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar respectively). Chapters 3 and 6 then are focused on rightful worship, and the trials of God's people.

  Add to that the phrase “all these kingdoms” in Dan 2:44. I am aware here that the words could be passed as “kingships” rather than “kingdoms”, but I cannot find a single Bible translation that has gone this route. (http://biblehub.com/daniel/2-44.htm)

  As far as the material of the stone being lowlier than the gold, I don't think there is a problem. Evidently the gold, silver etc is from a human standpoint - not God's. Jesus was a lowly one - the stone that the builders rejected. It is only when his kingdom becomes a great mountain having fully crushed the image that everyone understands its superior value.

  Similarly the fact that Medo-Persia, Greece etc, might have had more extensive dominions than Babylon is not necessarily important to the image as a whole. From Nebuchadnezzer's standpoint, his form of human government is pure gold. But the whole concept of human government is something that would be shown to have less and less value as the centuries advanced, until finally they are replaced by God's kingdom.

  So whilst your idea is interesting and well presented, I still think that the messianic kingdom is the ultimate theme of chapter 2.

  FG