OK, the "I don't know" answer is really just a restatement that God knows more than we do. It is not really a direct answer to the question which would have to look something like "logically if I had access to the same information as the all loving omniscient God and if I was going to act in the long-term interests of all humanity then I would act the same way as he did". Therefore the answer is NO. But the answer would not be NO without that additional knowledge. The answer for me would be YES, but that would miss the point of the question which was framed "if you had the powers that God had".
flamegrilled
JoinedPosts by flamegrilled
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
We had more affection for them than the bible/christian God does for his children on earth. humbled
I have no idea how you have measured this.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
interestingly, is it prudent to worship a god, you know so little about regarding his morals and actions? Maybe get to know his motives for what appears immoral, before getting down on your knees?
You have jumped two steps ahead S&R. Nothing in what I wrote tells you how much I know regarding his morals and actions. You asked a very specific question about a particular event, and I answered very specifically as requested.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
please just a one word answer first. S&R
Idon'tknowbecauseIdon'thavehisknowledge
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
None of us chose to sign up for this experiment. Apo
That's a fair point, but if you did have a choice between not existing, or playing your part in this universe, what would you choose?
We would call this teacher an insecure jerk, wouldn't we?
I have to agree. I really dislike the illustration. The JW framework of theodicy doesn't work for me.
As for the Flood altering the way the world works, we can ignore what science has to say about this and simply ask the question, "Why did God need to bring a flood to kill the wicked? Why not strike each one down with an individual lightning bolt or something?
I guess the ark would then not have existed, and the figurative part of the event - salvation by baptism - would be lost.
But actually if I had to choose between a lightning bolt and drowning, I think I would go for the latter. But that's just me.
Why kill nearly all the world's animals as well as alter the environment massively?" I don't think the Society has ever attempted to explain why the Flood was a necessary form of execution.
According to the Genesis account something happened as a result of the badness that caused "all flesh" to be ruined. It's pretty sketchy on detail so who knows what that might mean?
Anyone who claims to have ALL the answers, whether in supporting the Bible account, or in writing it off completely, is not worthy of listening to IMO. Anyone who questions things and deals realistically with uncertainty and probability I can listen to. Hence why I jumped into this conversation to challenge Cofty's certainty. It's not that I begrudge anyone their personal certainty based upon the balance of probability, but just don't try to tell me it's a logical certainty if it isn't.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
During the gruelling job summarizing flamegrilled's argument, I found it took about ten pages for him to run out of steam along a particular argument line.
No one ran out of steam. At least not at my end. But once it's said, it's said. I'm familiar with the urge to have the last word on everything, but there comes a point that you've made your point and the reader can decide.
I think this will tip to 100 pages mostly on people like S&R commenting simply on the fact that it's close to 100 pages. But that was one of the more useful contributions he made to this thread :)
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
The summary so far:
It's simple. Cofty and I actually agree that this whole discussion hinges on probability and not certainty. You only have to read the past few pages to verify that. For a more in depth discussion of why it matters you will have to read back quite a bit further.
Cofty and others do not like the uncertainty, even though they acknowledge that it exists, and therefore feel the need to not only reach a certain conclusion whilst lacking information, but to compel anyone taking part in the conversation to do so also.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
Flamegrilled - I refuse to talk about it and I don't like your tone
That is all you have done throughout this discussion. With each non-statement you make your god looks less credible.
With believers like you - who need enemies?
Now I'm being "quoted" from a dialogue made up by Cofty. Awesome job TG. Cofty paraphrases me from nothing that's ever been written, or even thought about, and then you quote it. That's a great example of what I'm talking about. Many people will jump in on this page and would otherwise fall for this kind of nonsense.
So many responses are just a waste of a comment. But if people didn't post stuff like this example then no wasted response would be required to put the record straight.
P.S. In case the reader didn't gather it by now, that is not a quote of anything I've ever written. But I do encourage the reader to read what I have actually written in order to understand why Cofty and his supporters feel the need to misrepresent my position.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
I have lost patience with you FG. Cofty
It's not a big concern to me Cofty. Your misrepresentations of my position have been numerous, but I have patiently continued the conversation. If you have lost patience I cannot help that.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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flamegrilled
Flamegrilled is there anything inaccurate about this summary of your position?
Atheist - The enormity of natural evil argues powerfully against christian theism.
Flamegrilled - Natural evil does not make my loving god logically impossible.
Atheist - In what way?
Flamegrilled - There may be facts you are not aware of.
Atheist - What facts could reconcile a tsunami with a loving, knowing, omnipotent god?
Flamegrilled - That is a mystery, I am just saying it's not logically impossible.
Atheist - It is very compelling evidence against theism. What evidence to the contrary could possibly be so strong?
Flamegrilled - I refuse to talk about it and I don't like your tone
Yes