Posts by flamegrilled

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Tammy - Not sure exactly what you mean by "He is the only obligation". You've then gone on to quote scriptures that talk about "listening to him" and "obeying his commandments". That is fundamentally the point of this thread. Jesus commandments includes love, preach, meet as per original scriptures quoted in my first post. I agree that Christ is the way, but there are further implications to acknowledging that. I agree that WTS may not be correct in every way, but that is why I am asking for someone to point out another way that encompasses all those obligations that come with being Christian.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Thanks for all the follow up. That's a lot of stuff to resopnd to and I won't have time to deal with it all. So I'll at least try to respond on some and hopefully come back to others later.

exwhyzee:

Do you think that it is pleasing to God that 2012 years after his Son's death, people are still reading the Bible, calling themselves Christians and looking to him as a means for salvation? Since we can't be perfect isnt it enough that people are trying?

Yes,I do agree that God would not be displeased with those things. But I also think that if people called themselves Christians then God would expect them to accept the responsibilities which come with that. If they were reading the bible and at the same time claimed that there were no such responsibilities then that would likely be displeasing. If would be a bit like me saying I call myself your "friend" so that should be good enough. If you needed me to help with something I'd just shrug and say I don't understand why you're not just happy with my "friendship". Anyone who reads Jesus' words in the gospels and the rest of the NT, but conludes that we don't need to do anything except believe must be reading very selectively IMO.

Do you think Jesus might have meant his followers or Christians would have love among themselves associated with a single group or toward all those who claimed to be Christian no matter what group they are in ?

Very possibly the latter. But it could be understood either way so I keep an open mind about that.

Do you think it is loving when JW's leave literature at peoples houses that bash and condemn them to destruction for being part of a non JW Congregation of Christians they hold dear ?

One would have to be quite selective with the contents of the material to read it that way (notwithstanding perhaps the campaign we had a couple fo years ago on "False religions end is near"). But if someone truly believes that another person is not on the narrow road leading to life then I think it would be wrong not to say it clearly. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they are necessaily correct, but here we are talking about whether they are "loving" not "correct". If the motivation is honestly right then yes I think a strong warning can be an expression of love.

Do all the details of the doctrine really matter all that much after all these years especially when there are so many ways for it to be interpreted , so long as they have the big chunks in place ? God the creator, Jesus sacrafice, obey Bible teachings as best as you are able to understand them.

I agree. It's the minute details that have often got us into trouble. We would do better to refocus on the big picture.

If the details are critically improtant, what about all the doctrinal changes that were made by the Watchtower Society after claiming they had The Truth and all others were condemned by God?

I understand what you're saying but it's difficult to identify specifics where WTS has said that other religions are condemned by God because of believing X and then for WTS to subsequently change to believing X. The idea of true worship / false worship has been presented as a more general concept than that. For example take the 1975 debacle. I don't think anyone would have said at the time that others are condemned for not believing the end was coming in 1975. Or that others are condemned for doubting the resurrection of the Sodomites. Its more general than that - the claim is based upon doctrines in part (hellfire, soul, etc), but also Christian morals and way of life, preaching etc. So as far as condemnation is concerned (if it's even ever been expressed that way) then I don't think it's been in relation to the smaller details. Nevertheless you are quite right that at any point in time too much has been claimed as regards the possession of complete truth. I agree.

Do you think it is possible that God looks at the individuals in each group of Christians and approves of them by their personal behavior rather than because of the group they are associated with ?

Yes. Absolutely.

Do you think there is ever a justification for Military action ? In Biblical times, God often had reasons for sending his people to war. He doesn't deal with mankind directly anymore but in your mind, could there ever be a reason for a Christian to take up arms that God might approve of ? I'm thinking of what the world would be like right now had Hitler (for one) not been stopped.

No I personally don't. When Jesus said "my kingdom is no part of the world" I do believe that means we should not make judgements that one political system is better than another and then take it into our own hands to support it by killing others as a result of that judgement. I believe that more recent conflicts which have ostensibly been promoted as a fight for right, have proven that often people are deceived into fighting for a country's greed (or perceived need). I think it's safer to go with God on this one and wait for him to clear the despots out of the way. I understand that sounds lame to anyone who doesn't believe that God is going to act, but I do have confidence that he will. In the meantime what would have happened if noone had stood up to Hitler? Who knows? Sometimes a moral decision has to be made based on God's word even if the consequences don't appear as though they will be the best. That also applies to the small things in life as well as the big ones.

Why do you suppose JW's spend so much time pointing out the faults and wrongdoings of other religious groups, the people of the world and other non Witness institutions and barely acknowledge, discuss or explain their own failings, rather than simply sticking to the business of teaching interested ones"their" understanding of the Bible and leave it at that ?

I don't know that it's necessarily wrong to point out faults of other religious groups. Jesus strongly exposed the way that the religious leaders of his day had moved far away from the word of God. I don't think he did that out of spite for those men, but rather to warn others not to follow them or go down the same route. If you had a teenage child who was going to hang-out with a group that would lead him into some seriously bad practices, would you stop at just trying to instill good morals in him/her, or would you also bluntly point out the problems with the behaviour of that group and the likely consequences? Again I'm not trying to get into the rights and wrongs of any particular group myself, simply pointing out that the motivation is not wrong in principle.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

hoffnung - thanks. Helpful post.

yknot - "Further how can you find anything else that 'fits the bill' if you can't fully demonstrate knowledge of what you are trying to compare....."

I'm not sure why I would need to "compare" on 1914, since I am not looking for that as a criterion of Christianity. As I mentioned I did address the origins (which I am reasonably certain you will be versed on anyway) but I'll copy and paste again from my post above...

Regarding how and when - it's clearly speculation built up on some adventist theories in the 19th century. IMO whether it's right or wrong doesn't change God's fundamental purpose to have Christ rule as king until all enemies are put under his feet and all things are reconciled to Him.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Giordino - thanks. I see your point. Of course you are correct to point out the level of control exercised in the organization. I don't disagree.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

ee - My original reason for posting is just as I put it. I really would like to understand if something else out there fits the bill. I'm active but I prefer not to give a lot of personal detail at this stage. Hope you will understand. I'm not really here to debate doctrine, since I already understand the flaws. I'm just trying to see how people perceive alternative ways of meeting what I believe to be Chrsitian obligations.

Just hypothetically if someone responded and convincingly demonstrated that it was possible to meet those obligations without the baggage that comes with our current framework then I'd seriously consider a different course.

That's about the sum of it.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Giordano - not sure I understand. Sorry.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

yknot - I did answer the 1914 question about 5 posts above yours - middle paragraph. Maybe you missed it.

elderelite - those are all good questions. If I could truly understand the answers it might help with my original reason for posting. You've obviously had good reason to choose the course you have.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

Sorry - not being nosey - I am new here. But it might help me understand the point being made if I could understand how someone could be active while in no way believing the message. It's just left me a little confused is all. I hope you can understand why.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

yknot - the way I see that is that it IS good news about the Christ, but with additional details about how everything becomes fulfilled through him. I don't see it as being "another sort of good news". But I understand that you might choose to see it differently. I guess you are reading "something beyond what YOU accepted" to mean that there would never be any additional knowledge on the matter. If so, fair enough. I can see the logic of that.

Regarding how and when - it's clearly speculation built up on some adventist theories in the 19th century. IMO whether it's right or wrong doesn't change God's fundamental purpose to have Christ rule as king until all enemies are put under his feet and all things are reconciled to Him.

I remain confused about your FS. Please just put me out of my misery and say that you don't want to tell me if that's the case and I will stop going on about it. Thanks.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

flamegrilled

I do. I'm green.

Do you mean that if you were given everlasting life that the location would be important to you? I'm not sure if that's what you meant. If so, that's okay. It's just not important to me.