If they were MY parents and they shunned me I'd GLADLY cut them off. They'd never hear from me again.
If that was my daughter, I'd never shun her. I'd rather die.
According to the bible God gave us free will. Even He doesn't interfere with free will. COMMANDING someone to cut off their family is not scriptural. In violates their free will.
someone suggested the other day that the home bookstudy meeting ended because of 'independent study' groups (in ireland) going 'off the reservation' and left the truth (tm).. has anyone heard of this before?.
does anyone have interesting stories of 'independent study' groups resulting in large scale apostasy?.
they did not publish this for no reason:.
Just read the KM link, thanks for posting. This is rather worrying. So if i want to meet up with brother X and go to a certain museum and study the original greek version of the bible and have theological discussion about it.... im not supposed to?
Shouldnt i treasure knowledge?
Proverbs 18:13 When anyone replies to a matter before he hears the facts, It is foolish and humiliating.
the following comment by lieu on another topic shows me that i would be totally frustrated, actually exasperated, stifled and depressed in the modern form of jwdom: "therein lies the real problem billy, no one is paying any attention at regular meetings let alone conventions.
it's too boring, intentionally i think.
humans aren't hardwired to sit through hours of lecture with no interactions.
I told my father in law (he's the elder in charge of the school) that i want to come off the ministry school. When he asked why i honestly told him "i enjoyed giving talks. Researching something and then presenting it to the congregation was really interested and enjoyable. Now that's gone how are we to prepare for giving talks before becoming min servants or elders?"
His reply was "hm! It's not all about YOU you know".
I said i wasnt making it about me. Learning to speak publicly was something us witnesses prided ourselves on - different from the "other" religions.
What we have now is just ministry demos.
it's rare that i bump into someone from the old hall.
but it happened yesterday with one of the nicest brothers i remember.. he came into my place of work not knowing i worked there.
my company is now on his delivery route.
There was a similar case in my hall. Brother faded successfully. Years later he was encouraged to come back to the meetings. At first he'd only come to memorials and about 2 meetings a year - where he was of course given the "love bomb" treatment. So eventually he decided to come to the meetings regularly...
what do you think happened?...
As soon as he's back he's called into a judicial because while he was out he'd lived your average worldly life: smoked, tried marijuana, sex etc. and so they disfellowshipped him. So whereas before he was out but still had his family and JW acquaintances, NOW he's out again and doesn't want to come back BUT now he doesnt have any friends or family.
Coaxed back in just to be booted out.
Why couldnt they have just left him alone to live his life? If he hadn't have come back he'd have been fine.
in case you havent read any of my previous posts the situation is im in the process of fading, my wife's dad is an elder and has the annoying habit of telling the body of elders anything and everything my wife tells him in confidence.
over the years she's started to see how we can tell her parents anything.
weather it be worries we have, music we listen to, movies we watch, decisions we make regarding our child etc.. anyway.
In case you havent read any of my previous posts the situation is im in the process of fading, my wife's dad is an elder and has the annoying habit of telling the body of elders anything and everything my wife tells him in confidence. Over the years she's started to see how we cant tell her parents anything. Weather it be worries we have, music we listen to, movies we watch, decisions we make regarding our child etc.
Anyway. After learning more about this organization and thinking critically and logically im convinced it's not 100% truth. But unfortunately, because we were "good JW's" we have zero "worldly" friends. We also have no friends in the congregation because there's social clicks and difference in personalities (which is fair enough - my sense of humor is quite out there for a JW). So I've been wary of telling my wife any of the things I've learned or my intentions, simply because if she happens to tell her dad, even if she asks him "is it true that..." he'd flag us up to the body of elders and i can expect a "concerned elders" visit.
The other day she said this:
"It's so annoying. I'm going through a REALLY hard time lately and no one cares - the only time my mum rings is when we dont go to the meetings. She pests us all day until we answer the phone just to ask why we didn't go. I mean, im 26yo. Im not a child. If i want to do something, or DON'T want to do something, that's up to me. It's like we're being CONTROLLED or TOLD what to THINK and BELIEVE. Yeah, i haven't been on the ministry in ages - but I've not claimed to be perfect. I dont say a word when someone doesn't go the hall or slips up. That doesn't make me a bad person. Why is everyone only interested in us when they think we've done something wrong?
And sister X, she gives all this advice about how to live a good life but she's never worked a day in her life. Her husband is well off and she spends her days shopping or on the ministry. She has no idea what it's like in the real world with real world problems."
I wanted to open the floodgates of all the things i've learned but i held back and just listened. Im letting her flower this thought process. Anyway, this morning as we were making breakfast and playing with our child we had the following conversation:
Her: What <worried>
Me: It's about our religion. There's some things that concern me about it.
(Funnyly enough she calmed down)
Her: Like what?
Me: Well... you know when people leave. Like they dont want to be part of it anymore, they're treated the same as DF'ed people.
Her: ...do they?
Me: Yeah. But i don't think that's right. I mean let say brother so and so decided "you know what, i don't believe this anymore. I respect you, i have nothing against you but i don't believe its the truth", he'd be announced from the platform and everyone would have to cut him off.
Her: ...nooooo... that's only when you do something bad isnt it?
Me: No. And that's the thing. You can leave. If i were a Catholic or a Jew and i said "i don't believe this is the truth, im out" they'd just leave you alone. But with ours if you leave your family and friends cut you off.
Her: But what about my grandparents?
(Her grandparents have been inactive for over 20 years)
Me: Yeah that's the loophole. If you dont go for so many years they just leave you alone. But look at brother X.
Her: What about him?
Me: Well he stopped going, lived his life, and years later the witnesses convinced him to come back to the meetings. He came back and they called him into a judical for the things he did when he wasn't going the hall. Now, he doesn't go but he's DF'ed - so he's lost his family. He'd have been better not coming back. If they'd left him alone he'd've been alright. Why bring him back just to disfellowship him?
Her: That sounds rather underhanded.
Me: I know. And do you know why people are treated as DF'ed when they disassociate? (I explained about Bro Franz).
Her: That's wierd.
Me: I know. So i dont think it's 100% the truth. I think things will come out.
Her: Yeah we know things change. Things get updated.
Me: Take the Revelation book. If my dad were alive today and read the new version he'd call it apostasy. Because the version he read was "correct" according to the governing body.
Her: Yeah
(We then had a discussion about 2 witnesses needed to decide guilt and she agreed it's baloney)
Me: And you know what else i think it's kinda sneeky. If i didn't go for years and years and celebrate xmas and someone tells the elders, they'd call me into a judicial - if i turn up they take that as me accept that as me accepting the authority of the body of elders and would DF me. BUT if i told them i DONT accept the authority of that body as being god ordained theyd have no power and would leave me alone.
Her: What?!! Where'd you hear that?!
Me: Elders guidebook.
Her: <laughing> How did you get hold of that?
Me: Your dad leaves it lying around, i had a flick through. (Which is true, but i also have a PDF copy). But thats the thing. We're not told that. In one of the Watchtowers about DF it says TWO things are needed to be DF. 1. Serious sin and 2. Unrepentant. We're told they're DF for being unrepentant. But you know yourself that's not always the case.
(She was DF a few years ago and was reinstated a year later she was CLEARLY repentant but was DF anyway. Also there was a "funny" story her dad told at the dinner table with other elders and their families were all listening, they were talking about a judicial they sat on where someone was repentant but they DF him anyway <all laughed>.).
The discussion ended there. She agreed with my points which suprised me. No resistance at all.
Taking it slow though. Let's hope this works out.
it's rare that i bump into someone from the old hall.
but it happened yesterday with one of the nicest brothers i remember.. he came into my place of work not knowing i worked there.
my company is now on his delivery route.
I remember the first time i got my hands on a copy of "Shepherd The Flock Of God" (secret elders guidebook if you dont know), and there's a part in there which says something along the lines of:
"If an inactive person attends a judicial hearing, he is indicating that he accepts the authority of the judicial committee..." so therefore, if you refuse their offer of a visit they have no grounds over you.
Rather dirty and underhanded i would say.
okay, i'm about to engage in a major word vomit.
just giving you fair warning as your time may be better spent somewhere else.. so, i'm sitting on my lunch break, bawling my eyes out, and writing on this forum to people i don't know yet probably have a great deal in common with but at the same time, used to scare the daylights out of me.
for years, i would come across this forum and 'lurk' awhile if you will, or see things on youtube.
I read your story and can relate to a lot of it. Im sorry to hear of your miscarriage. My hope is that if you stay out you wont shun your parents back. Try to make contact, even over the mundane things by txt, email or whatever. If you see JW's in the street who know you're DF'ed make a point of being really nice and happy and say hello. See, when we see DF'ed witnesses in the street we're told they're not happy, they're ashamed etc. it would not compute for us to see one happy and cheerful to be out.
I know we dont know you, but we love you. Sending you hugs x
you all like miracles?
wanna hear some real miracles that have happened?
this is all true folks!
Crazyguy
So crazy that according to JW world demons always seemed to be stuck in objects never to escape.
im in the process of drifting out.
my entire family are jw's.
my wife and her family are too.
Thanks for the comments and support guys. I really appreciate it.
My wife is slowly beginning to see things clearly too. I haven't told her my thoughts or even hinting towards things i've written on here. I've just let her speak and I've listened. she said to me a few days ago:
"It's so annoying. I'm going through a REALLY hard time lately and no one cares - the only time my mum rings is when we dont go to the meetings. She pests us all day until we answer the phone just to ask why we didn't go. I mean, im 26yo. Im not a child. If i want to do something, or DON'T want to do something, that's up to me. It's like we're being CONTROLLED or TOLD what to THINK and BELIEVE. Yeah, i haven't been on the ministry in ages - but I've not claimed to be perfect. I dont say a word when someone doesn't go the hall or slips up. That doesn't make me a bad person. Why is everyone only interested in us when they think we've done something wrong?
And sister X, she gives all this advice about how to live a good life but she's never worked a day in her life. Her husband is well off and she spends her days shopping or on the ministry. She has no idea what it's like in the real world with real world problems."
This was music to my ears. Im gonna let her flower this thought process on her own and see where we are in a few months.
you all like miracles?
wanna hear some real miracles that have happened?
this is all true folks!
You all like miracles? Wanna hear some REAL miracles that have happened? This is all TRUE folks! And should be a living example that THIS is Gods organization... <insert sarcasm here>
On a serious note, all of these are real accounts i've been told either from the platform or in witness get together where we sit and share testimonies.
1. Bro X moved house and his kitchen needed rewiring. He couldn't afford to pay for it. AMAZINGLY the insurance company informed him that they owed him money and it was the EXACT amount he needed. (I heard later from people who knew him that it was actually fraud, but that part never gets mentioned).
2. A murderer/rapist brutally murdered Sister Y's next door neighbor. When caught and questioned why he chose that house he said "i was going to go to Mrs Y's house but there were two big men standing in the way". (Obviously Jehovah send his angels). Too bad for her neighbor though.
3. Old Brother A was being followed one night - suddenly his would-be-attacker was put up against the wall by a great big burly man. (Obviously an angel).
4. Brother C was witnessing door to door when he met a Satanist. When the Satanist tried to take the literature CHAINS suddenly appeared on his hands and pulled them away.
It's rather disturbing that a god would allow such things as: Children to be gassed in Nazi concentration camps, people buried alive in Mao's China, innocent people burned at the stake in the middle ages etc. yet he's find providing new kitchens and sending angels to protect his people... well some of them.
