evilApostate

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Posts by evilApostate

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  54

  Survey: Are you Agnostic or Atheist or Christian?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am agnostic.

  i will count how many agnostics, atheists and christians that are reading this forum regularly.

  please answer my question.

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  evilApostate

  Agnostic.

  In a way everyone is a bit agnostic if you really think about it.
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  183

  The Great Crowd!

  by A Believer in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

  a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

  this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

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  evilApostate

  At Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is not seen as being in heaven. Their “standing before the throne” of God does not require them to be in heaven. They are simply in the sight of God. (Psalm 11:4) The fact that the great crowd, “which no man was able to number,” is not a heavenly class is shown by comparing its unspecified number with what is written at Revelation 7:4-8 and Revelation 14:1-4. There the number taken from the earth to heaven is revealed to be 144,000.

  You're still not making any sense. The psalms did not refer to anyone being before the throne and hence it can't be used as comparison. The angels were stated to be around the throne. Are they on earth? No.

  Jehovah is in his holy temple.+Jehovah’s throne is in the heavens.+His own eyes see, his watchful* eyes examine the sons of men.+

  That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+

  The very scriptures you posted shows that they are in heaven. J is on his throne which is in heaven. The GC are before the throne in the temple. Hence, the GC are in heaven.

  
  

  Anyway, I have no more time to debate this. Its just fiction after all...
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  183

  The Great Crowd!

  by A Believer in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

  a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

  this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

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  evilApostate

  I don't know if someone already said it but, can't you read?

  The very scriptures posted said that the great crowd was "before the throne" and in "heaven". How can this be interpreted to mean on earth?
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  37

  Despite their false predictions aren't the JWs right? Won't the world eventually end & Paradise come?

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  aren't there christian denominations who do not make false end of the world predictions but who nevertheless believe that the world will eventually end and paradise (whether in heaven or on earth) will come?.

  it seems the watchtower was just jumping the gun when they made false end of the world predictions but they are nevertheless the right: the world will eventually end and paradise will come..

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  evilApostate

  You may believe so, but can you prove it?
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  50

  Why Finding the One True Religion is Impossible

  by Simon in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws like to think they have found the one true religion.

  but like so many other religious people, it's usually the religion they were born into, the only religion they know because it's the first one they found or, at the most, one of two or three (typically the second one after they left their first / born-in faith).. the trouble is, there simply isn't enough time to explore and investigate each and everyone of the many thousands of belief systems, religions and sects around the world.. think of it this way: which is the best neighbourhood to live in where you would be most happy and most successful?

  not just in the city or even the country you are in, but the entire world.. how would you ever know?

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  evilApostate

  Excellent analogy.

  John Legend - Everybody knows, but nobody really knows...
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  34

  Knock knock."Who's there? Two elders!!

  by Darkknight757 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  so today was a cold and snowy day in my neck of the woods and the wife and i were just chilling around the house waiting to go to the church tonight for a candle lighting service when lo and behold we get a knock on the door.

  yup, 2 elders from my old hall.

  i figured they were fishing for some time so i invited them in and gave them some coffee and we talked about everything that happened and why we walk away from the jw's.

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  evilApostate

  Either way I was brutally honest with them and told them how it is. So they want to come back. I left them with the question regarding Genesis chapter 1 and how the creator of the universe doesn't know that trees require sunlight. They were dumbfounded.

  Lol. I bet they will say that he created light and darkness in day one, even though the sun wasn't made until day 4. Where would the light come from? Another bible contradiction I guess.

  3 And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light.+ 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.+And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.

  When they come back, tell them that the snake told the truth in the garden of eden:

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6252278996533248/satan-really-bad-guy-story-creation
  
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  11

  "I'm firm in my beliefs": Hypocrisy and Delusion

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have a friend who said he'll have to stop listening to me after i told him about yahweh's origins in canaanite religion, because he's firm in his beliefs.. i have a mother who said she goes to the meetings even if it's wrong, and i should too.

  she is also firm in her beliefs.. i have talked to an elder about evolution, and as i made the case for it and against creationism, he said that at some point i have to decide that there is a creator.

  he too is firm in his beliefs.. all of these people will also talk about going out in service.

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  evilApostate

  People who act in opposition to their own beliefs or who hold two or more contradictory beliefs may eventually suffer from cognitive dissonance. If someone knowingly places faith in a false belief system then they are acting in opposition to what they know in their heart. This causes stress and may result in depression and even physical illness.

  This is why I said it is foolish to put faith in a belief system you know to be false. It's like pretending your partner is faithful when you know they are cheating.

  I have a mother who said she goes to the meetings even if it's wrong, and I should too. She is also firm in her beliefs.

  schnell, your mom is only hurting herself. You say she goes to meetings even though she knows it is wrong. Hence, she is acting in opposition to what she knows in her heart. Cognitive dissonance is wide spread among JWs. Consider shunning someone (an unloving act) who you love. Such action is painful to the person doing it; probably even more than the person receiving it.

  In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time; performs an action that is contradictory to their beliefs, ideas, or values; or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas or values.
  

  
  
  
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  11

  "I'm firm in my beliefs": Hypocrisy and Delusion

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have a friend who said he'll have to stop listening to me after i told him about yahweh's origins in canaanite religion, because he's firm in his beliefs.. i have a mother who said she goes to the meetings even if it's wrong, and i should too.

  she is also firm in her beliefs.. i have talked to an elder about evolution, and as i made the case for it and against creationism, he said that at some point i have to decide that there is a creator.

  he too is firm in his beliefs.. all of these people will also talk about going out in service.

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  evilApostate

  @David_Jay

  I appreciate your commentary on the issue but I respectfully disagree with some of your points.

  1) Nobody wants to be wrong - While this may be true I don't think that it is a valid argument to make. I often hear people saying, "Everyone does this." Or, "Nobody does that." However, what justifies doing or not doing something isn't how many people do it or not do it. The questions we must always ask are, "Is it rational? Is it correct? Is it beneficial?" It doesn't matter how many people partake or do not partake in an activity. What matters is that they have valid reasons for partaking.

  I may also be prone to not wanting to be wrong. Yet, it doesn't mean that I can't fight the urge. One needs to recognize it when they are wrong and make appropriate adjustments for their own good. Just because everone makes mistakes, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't avoid making them.

  I know many people who try to accept it when they are wrong. However, some don't even put in the effort.

  2) The El of the Hebrews is not the El of the Canaanites - I find this hard to believe when all the evidence points the other way. Many parts of the Old Testament support the view that they were were the same.

  Examples:

  a) Abraham accepting the blessing of the Canaanite El.

  b) Yahweh recieving his rights over Israel from El.

  c) Canaanites worshipping Yahweh (E.g. Baalam was not an Israelite and yet sought to curse Israel via Yahweh. (Numbers 22:1-12)

  d) The mention of other gods in heaven's courts with Yahweh being the most high.

  There are many others. I mentioned some in a recent thread of mine. (I would like your opinion on it if you have the time.)

  3) Jews know more about their own religion than anyone else - To me, it seemed like you implied this. Someone who already has a bias towards a particular belief will most likely defend it even if they are wrong. Jews already think that Yahweh is not El. Real Christians already think that God is real. Hence, they possess a bias. I am not trying to say that any information from a Jew about Yahweh and El is incorrect. However, it seems logical to think that such a person would likely be biased. Therefore, I don't think that being a Jew or Christian makes you more qualified to speak about Yahweh, El or God than anyone else.

  4) The last bit about Wrongology - It seems that I upset you a bit. This was not my intention. However, I didn't mean that beliefs cause people to be "mentally lazy, dishonest, cowards and foolish." In fact, I stated that if someone knowingly places faith in a belief system that is incorrect then they are displaying mental laziness, dishonesty, cowardice and foolishness. i.e. People should give their best effort to reform ideas which they themselves know to be incorrect. Someone who knowingly accepts a false belief system displays cowardice by not facing their fear of being wrong.

  I started off my post by stating that I have no problem with anyone displaying faith in something which has not been thoroughly disproven. Hence, belief is not something I have a problem with; our very lives rest upon a multitude of them. What I do not accept is the inability of some to face the fact that a belief may be incorrect.

  Therefore, if you can thoroughly disprove that Canaanite El = Hebrew El, then I am obligated to discard a false belief. However, if you cannot then I will keep my current belief since all the evidence I have seen points in that direction.
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  11

  "I'm firm in my beliefs": Hypocrisy and Delusion

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have a friend who said he'll have to stop listening to me after i told him about yahweh's origins in canaanite religion, because he's firm in his beliefs.. i have a mother who said she goes to the meetings even if it's wrong, and i should too.

  she is also firm in her beliefs.. i have talked to an elder about evolution, and as i made the case for it and against creationism, he said that at some point i have to decide that there is a creator.

  he too is firm in his beliefs.. all of these people will also talk about going out in service.

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  evilApostate

  I can accept someone having faith in something which has not been disproven. However, I think its rather foolish for one to place faith in something which has been disproven quite thoroughly.

  An honest and intelligent person would accept it if they realise they have incorrect beliefs and continue searching for real truth.

  Take for example exams. If you were in an exam and you knew your answers were wrong and you also still had time, would you knowingly hand up your paper with the wrong answers? An intelligent person would try their hardest to hand up the correct answers rather than handing up incorrect ones, simply because it's easier.

  Those knowingly placing faith in false belief systems are mentally lazy, dishonest, cowards and foolish. A man can believe that he can fly. However, when he jumps from a cliff he is sure to fall to his ruin.
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  17

  Should a Priest ,Elder ,Pastor withold a crime from the relevant authorities because of a confidential confessional ?

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what do you believe , is a confessional something that is sacred between the the two parties involved ?

  or does it depend on the severity of the crime/sin.. or is their a responsability of the recpient of the confession to divulge what he/she knows about the crime.?.

  what we see in movies ,tv, etc shows it is a no no .but is that true ?the confessional is only between the two involved.?.

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  evilApostate

  When I went to my counselor he handed me an agreement to sign before we started our session. It basically stated that if I told him of any crimes or intention to commit crime like murder, rape etc then he would have to warn the person involved and the authorities. He said that it was required by law.

  If rules like these apply to counselors and the like, then why should they not also apply to priests/pastors?