Posts by Jorden

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Fisherman, when it comes to the trumpets the answer is YES, they are ALL blown in order and YES, the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe. What this means is that trumpets 1-5 and the events associated with them will have to occur BEFORE trumpet 6 can blow. Likewise, BEFORE trumpet 7 can blow the events associated with trumpet 6/2nd woe have to occur and end BEFORE trumpet 7. This means that trumpet 7 has to blow AFTER the 42-months end.

[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

Well now, according to WTS the 42-months were from Oct 1914 to April 1918. If that were true thou and that is when the 42-months were and since the 7th trumpet blows AFTER the 42-months/2nd woe ends then that means that the 7th trumpet blew in April 1918 at the earliest.

It seems the WTS agrees:

[7-15-51 WT- At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’(Revelation 11:15)]

Now you say, well that can't be because the WTS teaches that the 7th trumpet blew in Oct 1914.

[11 -1- 02 WT – In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]

Ok so let's just say the 7th trumpet did blow in Oct 1914 even thou above they also said it blew in 1918. The fact that they say the 7th blew AFTER the 42-months ended is correct and shows that the trumpets blow in order. But that means that for the 7th to have blown in Oct 1914 then the 42-months would have to have occurred in April 1911 and ended in Oct 1914. But they don't teach that, no as I said they say those 42-months were Oct 1914 to April 1918.

But according to a straight reading of the Scriptures and the 51 WT we know the 7th trumpet can't blow until AFTER the 42-months.

So, to solve this dilemma you are to know what/when the 42 months are and what the 7th trumpet is announcing. This brings us back to speaking about Joel and the last day/1,000 years.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

At present, JW believe that Jesus began ruling in 1914. However, the millennium starts after Armageddon. I don’t know how Revelation is going to play out exactly.

Fisherman, technically the millennium can't start AFTER Armageddon but instead starts at Armageddon, The reason being is because ALL the chosen have to be with Jesus when Armageddon commences, and in order for ALL chosen to be with Jesus at that time, the 'first resurrection' would have to have occurred. In order for the 'first resurrection' to occur the 'last day' has to come and the 'last trumpet' has to sound.

When Jesus comes AFTER the GT is when his chosen are gathered together to him. This coming will be on the 'last day', which is a 1,000 yearlong day. The chosen are resurrected at the time he comes. Look at the following and tell me if you agree or where you disagree:

[John 11:24 “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]
[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]
[Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]
[2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.]
[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming/presence of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]
[1 Corinthians 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]
[Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
[2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming/presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,]

[2-15-86 WT p.19 par.14 – It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8)]

[5-1-90 WT p.26 par.9 – Martha knew about that hope from her association with Jesus, for she had previously said to him regarding Lazarus: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:24) She knew that the resurrection would be, not on his (Lazarus’) last day, but in the future, “on the last day”—Judgment Day, when the dead would be raised under God’s Kingdom rule.]

[Insight Vol 2 – Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38)]

[12-1-89 WT p.9 – The judgment will take place “in the last day,” during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign.]

[4-1-82 WT p.23 par.13 – Consequently, the expression “come to life” must refer to the situation at the end of the 1,000-year-long Judgment Day.]

[7-1-98 WT p.21 par.12 – That “last day” coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:6) Imagine the excitement during that “day” when this grand event begins!]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I said at the beginning of this thread:

[Scholar and Fisherman, I started this thread because I didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.]

I did this because I did not want to interrupt the discussion there, so I started this one just to ask the questions I have to Scholar and Fisherman. So why are there those that have to come post here and bring the same subject matter over here...PLEASE keep it there...

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday (page 35) (jehovahs-witness.com)

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Fisherman, Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere, this is a great. You addressed each of my questions with your personal understanding/knowledge. So, let's now continue in this same manner.

In regard to Joel, the WTS teaches that 3:2 is referring to Armageddon. They do not believe/teach that this had any past fulfillment and so they say this is future at Armageddon. As you saw for yourself in the Insight book it says:

[In our day, “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” serves as a symbolic winepress in which the nations are crushed like grapes for mistreating Jehovah’s people.]

Also, this is said:

[The nations will be judged in “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” (3:1-21) The nations will be judged for mistreating God’s people They are challenged to prepare themselves for war against Jehovah and to come down to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; there they will be crushed like grapes in a winepress At that time Jehovah will be a refuge for his people Egypt and Edom will become a wilderness, whereas Judah will be inhabited and produce abundantly; Jehovah will reside in Zion.]

[1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14 —What is “the day of Jehovah”? The day of Jehovah is the time of the execution of Jehovah’s judgment upon his enemies, resulting in destruction for them but salvation for true worshippers.]

[Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.—3:1-21.]

So, the answer to my question is that it is speaking about Armageddon, and it is still to be fulfilled in the future. I am in agreement with what the WTS says on this. Do you agree with that answer, or do we need to talk more about it? If you agree, then I can move on to show why I bring this subject up.

_____

In regard to the trumpets, that was no trick question from me or something that takes some special Bible understanding. And you don't need to know what the WTS says about it at this point. I wrote each of the Scriptures from the Bible itself and asked:

[Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?]

Again, no tricks, no asking what WTS teaches, just asking based on what you read yourself what do you say about it.

_______________

In regard to the 1,000 years, I asked if you/JW's believed they started in 1918 and you said y'all believe they start after Armageddon. So, on this we can both agree that the 1,000 years have not started yet and is future. Because we agree here, I can move on further on this topic. Let me know about the trumpets and Joel.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I started this thread for the purpose of not hijacking any current ones. Can all other than Scholar and Fisherman refrain from posting at this time? (I am asking respectfully, not telling.) Look what has happen already, this thread has been derailed from what it was intended.

__________________________

Scholar and Fisherman can we start again from this point and only discuss what I am asking y'all...

Will one or both of you answer my 3 questions so that we can continue this discussion.

1. Can you tell me what Joel 3:2 is describing and if it has been fulfilled yet?

[Joel 3: 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

2. Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures in Rev below, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?

[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]
[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

3. Do you/JW's believe the 1,000-year reign began in 1918 and we are 105 years into it?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Jesus reference to pointed stakes surrounding Jerusalem in prophecy was also an allusion to the first destruction. Also, 1914, the Parousia, The appointed times of the nations, the establishment of God’s kingdom in the heavens are all based on the date of the destruction of Jerusalem in BCE.

Fisherman, thank you for that reply. I have much to say about that and these questions will tie into what you said there. Can you answer these 3 questions:

1. Can you tell me what is this verse describing and if it has been fulfilled yet?

[Joel 3: 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

2. Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?

[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]
[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

3. Do you/JW's believe the 1,000 year reign began in 1918 and we are 105 years into it?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Your questions are nonsensical!

nonsensical - having no meaning; making no sense

How is it that they have no meaning making no sense? These questions are based on JW teachings/beliefs. You as a JW should know about them. Are you willing to answer them or not?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I am a JW. I am convinced that God’s Holy Spirit is “operative” upon JW exclusively leading to the conclusion that JW is God’s agency.

Fisherman, thank you for your sharing your thought. Based on what you said are you willing to address my first 3 questions?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

The debate concerning 586 or 587 BCE is very important

I did not say it was not important, I said it was not debatable because the discrepancy arises on whether the accession or regnal year is being used to count from. But let us not get into discussing that here and focus only on the 3 questions I asked you. That is the reason why I open this new thread.

So, what do you say in response to the questions?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

The 607/ 587 BC or more accurately the 607/587/586 BC debate is very important for it involves Bible Chronology and its relationship to Eschatology and Prophecy.

587/586 is not really debatable, the one-year discrepancy comes about based on whether the accession or regnal year is being used to count from. Regardless, as to Bible prophecy and JW's 607 is only important because of their 1914 teaching. That being the case, if all that is said in connection with the 1914 teaching is false then 607 should not matter to JW's.

So, if you are an active JW and you are knowledgeable of their beliefs and if you are a honest person then answer some questions I have and see where it leads.

[9-1-15 WT – Would you like to receive truthful answers to your questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses? We encourage you to turn to the most knowledgeable source—Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves,]

[10-1-14 WT – Do you have a particular Bible subject that you have wondered about? Are you curious about any of the beliefs or religious practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses? If so, do not hesitate to ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He or she will be pleased to discuss such matters with you.]

So to start with:

1. Can you tell me what is this verse describing and if it has been fulfilled yet?

[Joel 3: 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

2. Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?

[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]
[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

3. Do you/JW's believe the 1,000 year reign began in 1918 and we are 105 years into it?