Posts by Jorden

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

It can be concluded that minimum, 607 is arguable.

Fisherman, but what is the point of defending 607?

For WTS/GB/JW's 607 = 2,520 years to 1914 which = 42-months to 1918 which was supposed to be a time period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah which led to approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS.

But I have shown by use of the Scriptures and WTS publications that the 42-month period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah did not take place in 1914-1918 and it is still future to occur. So, based on that, what justification is there for approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS?

Even if 607 date were correct, it would not matter to the fact that the 7th trumpet did not sound in 1914. The 42-months were not 1914- 1918.

Jehovah is not happy with his people currently and does not approve of them, that is why Jehovah brings the 42-month period upon them. The WTS/GB knows this and that is why they teach that that happen in 1914-1918 period, claiming that since then all is well with them and Jehovah. That he approves of them. But again, that is not the case, the 42-months were not back then they are still to come.

See WTS/GB and Scriptures say:

[5-15-15 WT p.29 – Who, then, is Gog of Magog? To answer that question, we need to search the Scriptures to find out who attacks God’s people. The Bible speaks not only of the attack by ‘Gog of Magog’ but also of the attack by “the king of the north” and of the attack by “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not likely. The Bible is no doubt referring to the same attack under different names. Why can we draw that conclusion? Because the Scriptures tell us that all the nations of the earth will be involved in this final attack that prompts the war of Armageddon.—Rev. 16:14, 16.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

[6-1-81 WT – We come now to part three, dealing with judgment and execution. (Joel 3:2-16, 19) It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood.]

[12-1-61 WT p.714 par. 8 – The worst plague of locusts and worms ever foretold to come was that one of which Jehovah’s prophet Joel gave forewarning. That plague was not threatened by Jehovah God without a just cause occasioned by his people. That is why in Joel’s prophecy Jehovah presents himself as at war with his own people. Here let ~~Christendom~~ who today claims to be God’s people take serious notice!]

[1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people.]

[Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and I hid my face from them.’]

[3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]

[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks....13 And Jehovah* says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips,+ and they have removed their heart itself far away from me,+ and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught,]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

for the 'appointed times of the nations' or the Gentile Times is the time period from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the 1914 CE

Scholar, I have shown from the 'lotta scripture' I quote that that is not true. But it is ok that you still say that at this point but only now you can't just make that statement, you now have to explain/defend how what you believe is correct against what I shown to be.

Let's say for the moment I give you a pass on saying the 'appointed times of the nations' mentioned in Luke are indeed 2,520 years and go from 607 to 1914.

[Luke 21: 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.] (2,520 years and go from 607 to 1914)

______

Ok, with that noted tell me when these 42-months that occur during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe, tell me when they take place???

[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

_______

Tell me when these 42-months take place???

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.]

________

Lastly, tell me when does it take place that the nations rule over Jehovah's people as mentioned in Joel's account???

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

Keep in mind here that Jehovah recues his said people from this time period of being captive/ruled over. So, again tell me when does it take place that the nations rule over Jehovah's people as mentioned in Joel's account???

[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

[w89 3/15 p. 31 - Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.—3:1-21.]

[6-1-81 WT – We come now to part three, dealing with judgment and execution. (Joel 3:2-16, 19) It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Boy, you quote lotta scripture!!!

Yes, Scholar that is true and if you spent half the time you do on concerning yourself with the dates, then you would actually have some knowledge to what the Scripture's state and you would realize that it does not matter 607/587 because the appointment times of the nations are not from 607 to 1914...they are the last 42-months of Satan's world that the 8th king will rule over God's people. When those 42-months/appointed times end, Jesus will come with God's kingdom and put and end to Satan's world/kingdom. That is when the 7th trumpet will sound and God's kingdom will begin to rule with Jesus and his chosen that will at that time be gathered to him to rule for the 1,000 years.

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.]

[Luke 21: 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

________
[1-15- 14 WT – IN THE spring of the year 31 on a mountain close to the town of Capernaum, Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray: “Let your Kingdom come.” (Matthew 6:10) Today, many doubt if the Kingdom will ever come. However, we are confident that Jehovah will answer our prayers for his Kingdom to come.] (Notice that was said in 2014, 100 years AFTER 1914 and yet it is said they are still praying for God's kingdom to come. That neans that the 'has become' in verse 15 was not so in 1914 or ever since, but it will be in the future when Jesus comes AFTER the GT as stated at Matt 24:29.30.)

[11-15-55 WT -. …Satan’s kingdom ends completely at Armageddon.]

[9-1-91 WT – Almighty God has set a time limit to Satan’s activity among mankind. When that time limit arrives, destruction will come upon the world lying in Satan’s power.]

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world (Satan’s) has become the kingdom of our Lord (JEHOVAH) and of his Christ (JESUS)”]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Jesus reference to pointed stakes surrounding Jerusalem in prophecy was also an allusion to the first destruction. Also, 1914, the Parousia, The appointed times of the nations, the establishment of God’s kingdom in the heavens are all based on the date of the destruction of Jerusalem in BCE.

Fisherman,

In regard to parousia/presence this is directly connected to the first resurrection the gathering of the chosen ones to Jesus. That takes place AFTER the GT on the last day.

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the presence of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

[1 Corinthians 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[2-15-86 WT p.19 par.14 – It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8)]

[Matthew 25:31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.]

[Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.]

[2 Thessalonians 1:6 For indeed it is righteous with God to repay those oppressing you with affliction, 7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed]

_______________

In regard to pointed stakes and appointed times of the nations. First note what WTS says here:

[3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]

So, they say that this attack on Ariel is fulfilled with the future attack by Gog. That being the case let's look at the context in regard to Ariel.

[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

It is clear that Jehovah brings the distress on Ariel/his people. Likewise, Jehovah brings Gog on his people.

[Ezekiel 38:16 And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land,]

[1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people.]

Well at this point I don't need to convince you that the WTS says that Gog attacks Jehovah's people in the future and they say that the attack on Ariel is the same account. I also don't need to convince that Jehovah is the one that brings this upon his people. What about the GT, you know that is still future, but did you know the GT is Gog's attack? Did you know that the Northerner/locust attack on Jehovah's people in Joel's account is the same as Gog's attack? Did you know that these attacks are the true time of the 42-months/appointed times of the nations? Did you know that is when the 6th trumpet/2nd woe will be being fulfilled and then AFTER the 7th trumpet will blow? These 42-months are the last period of Satan's world and lead right into God's kingdom.

[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

[Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”]

[Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

[1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people. It will be an all-out attempt on the part of Satan to break the integrity of God’s loyal ones. As never before, worshipers of Jehovah will need to call upon him earnestly, even crying for help.]

[Joel 1:14 Proclaim a fast; call for a solemn assembly. Gather the elders together, with all the inhabitants of the land, To the house of Jehovah your God, and cry to Jehovah for help.]

[6-1-81 WT p.30 – Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples.]

[Ezekiel 38:13 Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]

[w89 3/15 p. 31 - Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.—3:1-21.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’] [Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

So why did I ask you if you/JW's believe the 1,000 years began in 1918...well because as I have shown is that the 'first resurrection' takes place on the 'last day', but because WTS teaches that the 'first resurrection' began in 1918 then that means that the 'last day' 1,000 years must have begun then and the 'last trumpet' must have sounded as well.

[Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? w07 1/1 pp. 25-30 - The Watchtower—2007]

But yet the WTS teaches that 'the last day coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ.' So, since they teach that and since the 1,000-year reign is still yet to begin then that means no resurrection occurred in 1918. Saying the resurrection has occurred before it actually does is not a good thing according to Paul. This was happening in his day.

[2 Timothy 2:18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.]

2 Timothy 2 — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

[Hymenaeus and Philetus are among them: Paul mentions these two men as examples of apostates, whose teachings Timothy must reject. Hymenaeus and Philetus had deviated from the truth and were also damaging the faith of others by teaching falsehoods, claiming that the resurrection had already occurred.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Fisherman, when it comes to the trumpets the answer is YES, they are ALL blown in order and YES, the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe. What this means is that trumpets 1-5 and the events associated with them will have to occur BEFORE trumpet 6 can blow. Likewise, BEFORE trumpet 7 can blow the events associated with trumpet 6/2nd woe have to occur and end BEFORE trumpet 7. This means that trumpet 7 has to blow AFTER the 42-months end.

[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

Well now, according to WTS the 42-months were from Oct 1914 to April 1918. If that were true thou and that is when the 42-months were and since the 7th trumpet blows AFTER the 42-months/2nd woe ends then that means that the 7th trumpet blew in April 1918 at the earliest.

It seems the WTS agrees:

[7-15-51 WT- At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’(Revelation 11:15)]

Now you say, well that can't be because the WTS teaches that the 7th trumpet blew in Oct 1914.

[11 -1- 02 WT – In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]

Ok so let's just say the 7th trumpet did blow in Oct 1914 even thou above they also said it blew in 1918. The fact that they say the 7th blew AFTER the 42-months ended is correct and shows that the trumpets blow in order. But that means that for the 7th to have blown in Oct 1914 then the 42-months would have to have occurred in April 1911 and ended in Oct 1914. But they don't teach that, no as I said they say those 42-months were Oct 1914 to April 1918.

But according to a straight reading of the Scriptures and the 51 WT we know the 7th trumpet can't blow until AFTER the 42-months.

So, to solve this dilemma you are to know what/when the 42 months are and what the 7th trumpet is announcing. This brings us back to speaking about Joel and the last day/1,000 years.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

At present, JW believe that Jesus began ruling in 1914. However, the millennium starts after Armageddon. I don’t know how Revelation is going to play out exactly.

Fisherman, technically the millennium can't start AFTER Armageddon but instead starts at Armageddon, The reason being is because ALL the chosen have to be with Jesus when Armageddon commences, and in order for ALL chosen to be with Jesus at that time, the 'first resurrection' would have to have occurred. In order for the 'first resurrection' to occur the 'last day' has to come and the 'last trumpet' has to sound.

When Jesus comes AFTER the GT is when his chosen are gathered together to him. This coming will be on the 'last day', which is a 1,000 yearlong day. The chosen are resurrected at the time he comes. Look at the following and tell me if you agree or where you disagree:

[John 11:24 “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]
[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]
[Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]
[2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.]
[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming/presence of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]
[1 Corinthians 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]
[Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
[2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming/presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,]

[2-15-86 WT p.19 par.14 – It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8)]

[5-1-90 WT p.26 par.9 – Martha knew about that hope from her association with Jesus, for she had previously said to him regarding Lazarus: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:24) She knew that the resurrection would be, not on his (Lazarus’) last day, but in the future, “on the last day”—Judgment Day, when the dead would be raised under God’s Kingdom rule.]

[Insight Vol 2 – Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38)]

[12-1-89 WT p.9 – The judgment will take place “in the last day,” during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign.]

[4-1-82 WT p.23 par.13 – Consequently, the expression “come to life” must refer to the situation at the end of the 1,000-year-long Judgment Day.]

[7-1-98 WT p.21 par.12 – That “last day” coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:6) Imagine the excitement during that “day” when this grand event begins!]

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Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I said at the beginning of this thread:

[Scholar and Fisherman, I started this thread because I didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.]

I did this because I did not want to interrupt the discussion there, so I started this one just to ask the questions I have to Scholar and Fisherman. So why are there those that have to come post here and bring the same subject matter over here...PLEASE keep it there...

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday (page 35) (jehovahs-witness.com)

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Fisherman, Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere, this is a great. You addressed each of my questions with your personal understanding/knowledge. So, let's now continue in this same manner.

In regard to Joel, the WTS teaches that 3:2 is referring to Armageddon. They do not believe/teach that this had any past fulfillment and so they say this is future at Armageddon. As you saw for yourself in the Insight book it says:

[In our day, “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” serves as a symbolic winepress in which the nations are crushed like grapes for mistreating Jehovah’s people.]

Also, this is said:

[The nations will be judged in “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” (3:1-21) The nations will be judged for mistreating God’s people They are challenged to prepare themselves for war against Jehovah and to come down to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; there they will be crushed like grapes in a winepress At that time Jehovah will be a refuge for his people Egypt and Edom will become a wilderness, whereas Judah will be inhabited and produce abundantly; Jehovah will reside in Zion.]

[1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14 —What is “the day of Jehovah”? The day of Jehovah is the time of the execution of Jehovah’s judgment upon his enemies, resulting in destruction for them but salvation for true worshippers.]

[Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.—3:1-21.]

So, the answer to my question is that it is speaking about Armageddon, and it is still to be fulfilled in the future. I am in agreement with what the WTS says on this. Do you agree with that answer, or do we need to talk more about it? If you agree, then I can move on to show why I bring this subject up.

_____

In regard to the trumpets, that was no trick question from me or something that takes some special Bible understanding. And you don't need to know what the WTS says about it at this point. I wrote each of the Scriptures from the Bible itself and asked:

[Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?]

Again, no tricks, no asking what WTS teaches, just asking based on what you read yourself what do you say about it.

_______________

In regard to the 1,000 years, I asked if you/JW's believed they started in 1918 and you said y'all believe they start after Armageddon. So, on this we can both agree that the 1,000 years have not started yet and is future. Because we agree here, I can move on further on this topic. Let me know about the trumpets and Joel.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I started this thread for the purpose of not hijacking any current ones. Can all other than Scholar and Fisherman refrain from posting at this time? (I am asking respectfully, not telling.) Look what has happen already, this thread has been derailed from what it was intended.

__________________________

Scholar and Fisherman can we start again from this point and only discuss what I am asking y'all...

Will one or both of you answer my 3 questions so that we can continue this discussion.

1. Can you tell me what Joel 3:2 is describing and if it has been fulfilled yet?

[Joel 3: 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

2. Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures in Rev below, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?

[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]
[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

3. Do you/JW's believe the 1,000-year reign began in 1918 and we are 105 years into it?