Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Even if such a war were to break out, it would not be evidence of God, or that it happened specifically because of ‘prophecies’, though it is plausible that people in positions of authority could deliberately try to influence events to ‘fulfil’ it.

United Nations: Guterres warns ‘we are on the edge of an abyss’ | Economy News | Al Jazeera

[United Nations: Guterres warns ‘we are on the edge of an abyss’
The UN’s chief painted a grim picture of a divided and polarised world and urged solidarity among nations.

The world has never been more threatened or more divided, United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres told nations of the world on Tuesday as he kicked off the 76th General Assembly session, urging all 193 member states to “wake up” and realise that solidarity is the only way out of disaster.]

Russia says relations with US 'on edge of open armed conflict' (aa.com.tr)

[The relations between Moscow and Washington are on the edge of an open armed conflict, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov has said.

"We are working to keep relations with the US from falling into the abyss of an open armed conflict, we are already on the verge, on the edge of this abyss," Ryabkov said on Thursday night in an interview with Russian Pervy TV channel.]

World Is Walking Into WW3 With "Eyes Wide Open" - UN Chief Tells General Assembly | ZeroHedge

[World Is Walking Into WW3 With "Eyes Wide Open" - UN Chief Tells General Assembly

United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres warned on Monday in a speech delivered before the 193-member UN General Assembly that the world is headed toward a "wider war" in Ukraine due to the ever-increasing risk of escalation.
"The prospects for peace keep diminishing," Guterres said. "The chances of further escalation and bloodshed keep growing." He then sounded the alarm that "I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open."]
__________

[Dan 2:41 And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron,+the kingdom itself will prove to be divided,+but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay.+42 And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.]

[Rev 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke+ got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.]

[Revelation 17:8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss...11 And the wild beast that was but is not,+ it is also an eighth king,]

[6-15-12 WT – Any power it (U.N.) has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11) But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]

[Daniel 8:23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it , and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation]

Bush Sr. New World Order Speech (rare) - YouTube

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Stop trying to scare people with nonsense.

LOL! What about what I have shown would cause you to use that wording, 'scare people'?

What about what I have shown do you think is 'nonsense'?

Is it the Scriptures or the video clips?

If it is the Scriptures that are 'nonsense', then let's throw them out, throw out the whole Bible. It's a fake made-up book anyway, right.

OKAY DONE...it's out.

Now what about the UN organization, is it 'real', does it 'exist', is there 'proof' of it, was it really created in 1945 AFTER WW2?

Are Ted, George, and Walter 'real' people? Are they speaking the 'truth' in stating what they did in those clips where they tell what purpose the UN was founded and what the goal is for it to be someday?

Is it true that the way the current UN that exist in NY is made up of many different nations?

We threw out the Bible, so no need to refer to John and Daniel, fake people.

What about Ted, George and Walter and what they say...do you think that if there is a 3rd world war that during that time that that event/circumstance will be used to then make the UN become the entity that it was created for AFTER WW2 and has been working toward being since that time?

And don't mention anything in your answers about God, Bible, proof, etc... cause we threw that out.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

There is no basis for your assertions that any of the verses refer to the UN or to anything happening now.

There is basis but you would have to know the different Scriptures that are talking about the same entity. Also, you have to know what the goal was behind creating the UN.

[6-15-12 WT – Any power it (U.N.) has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11) But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]

[Daniel 8:23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.

[Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king...13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it , and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation]

Bush Sr. New World Order Speech (rare) - YouTube

One World Religion - UN - YouTube

Walter Cronkite World Federalist Association - YouTube

User Clip: President H.W. Bush Joint Session of Congress Promotes New World Order | C-SPAN.org

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

But as already stated, even if such a war took place it wouldn’t be evidence of God. And the claim that something after that would be evidence of God is just begging the question anyway.

It seems that you reply without fully reading what you are replying to. I did not say that the war was evidence of God. Here is what I said:

For those that do not believe now, I will tell you that when WW3 breaks out and this current system collapses and as a result the UN is given authority for 42-months, many will certainly start to believe at that time. And for those that don't believe during that time, then you will get your proof that you need to see in order to believe. You will see at the end of the 42-months, and you will believe then.
.[Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress (the 42-months), “’the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.]
[John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”]

[1-15-00 WT – Here the apostle John mentions seven kings, representing seven world powers—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. He also sees “an eighth king” that “springs from the seven.” This eighth king—the last one that John envisions—now represents the United Nations.]

[Revelation Climax – As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority.]

[6-15-12 WT – Any power it has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Even if such a war were to break out, it would not be evidence of God, or that it happened specifically because of ‘prophecies’, though it is plausible that people in positions of authority could deliberately try to influence events to ‘fulfil’ it.

Your statement is in error in where you are trying to address what I said/didn't say. And your statement is actually truer than you know, and actually is the case.

In your reply you half quoted me.

Full quote, bolden what you quoted:

[For those that do not believe now, I will tell you that when WW3 breaks out and this current system collapses and as a result the UN is given authority for 42-months, many will certainly start to believe at that time. And for those that don't believe during that time, then you will get your proof that you need to see in order to believe. You will see at the end of the 42-months, and you will believe then.]

I did not mention of it being proof/evidence of God in that part. I said the proof/evidence will be seen AFTER the 42-months end.

And YES, not only plausible but it is the case that people in positions of authority are deliberately influencing these events.

Bring about the events that will lead to the need to put the UN in power.

The 42 months already happened in 66-70CE. Christian expectations for what would follow were simply wrong, and they’ve been making up alternatives ever since.

Say what you will, I have told you what will happen.

WW3/collapse of this system>>>brings about empowering the UN>>>42-months later Jesus will come.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

[9-1-15 WT – Would you like to receive truthful answers to your questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses? We encourage you to turn to the most knowledgeable source—Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves,]

[10-1-14 WT – Do you have a particular Bible subject that you have wondered about? Are you curious about any of the beliefs or religious practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses? If so, do not hesitate to ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He or she will be pleased to discuss such matters with you.]

____________________

What has been proven is that Scholar and Fisherman are not willing to answer my questions and discuss what I have shown.

Also, when it comes to proof of God and believing that he exist...

[John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”]

For those that do not believe now, I will tell you that when WW3 breaks out and this current system collapses and as a result the UN is given authority for 42-months, many will certainly start to believe at that time. And for those that don't believe during that time, then you will get your proof that you need to see in order to believe. You will see at the end of the 42-months, and you will believe then.

[Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, “’the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.]

World Is Walking Into WW3 With "Eyes Wide Open" - UN Chief Tells General Assembly | ZeroHedge

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

[1-15-00 WT – Here the apostle John mentions seven kings, representing seven world powers—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. He also sees “an eighth king” that “springs from the seven.” This eighth king—the last one that John envisions—now represents the United Nations.]
[Revelation Climax – As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority.]
[6-15-12 WT – Any power it has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]
[5-1-99 WT – Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a “disgusting thing”) and that is now the United Nations…Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the “standing in a holy place” still ahead of us? Evidently so. While “the disgusting thing” made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future.]
[7-1-84 WT p. 12-13 par. 18 – As John the apostle saw it in vision, “the kings of the earth,” the political powers of the UN ‘wild beast,’ will gather to wage war against God’s enthroned “King of kings and Lord of lords.” That will be the signal for Har–Magedon, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” It will bring annihilation to all of Satan’s forces on earth and salvation to “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah.”—Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11, 16, 19-21; Romans 10:13.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]

[Matt 24:15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+ 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.]

[Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Scholar, again thank you for your reply in regard to when you say the 42-months at Rev 11:2 takes place. (Oct 4/5 1914 - March 26/27 1918)

While I wait for your reply on when do you say Rev 11:15 was/is fulfilled I wanted to incorporate this for the purpose of you addressing it in your reply.

[7-15-51 WT- At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’(Revelation 11:15)]

The WTS(of 51) agrees with the dates you have for the 42-months/1,260 days. In regard to Rev 11:15 being fulfilled the WTS(of 51) believes it occurred AFTER the 42-months/1,260 days ended(2nd woe past) in March 1918.

Do you agree with WTS(of 51) that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in March 1918?

If not, when do you say Rev 11:15 was/is fulfilled?

Also, do you believe that the WTS(of 51) correctly places the fulfillment of trumpet 7 AFTER the 42-months/1,260 days end (2nd woe past) and that placement would be true regardless of whenever the 42-months are said to occur and vice-versa that whenever the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) is said to have blown then the 42-months would need to end (2nd woe past) just prior to the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) blowing?

[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]

[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe (1), woe(2), woe(3) to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]

[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe(trumpet 5) is past. Look! Two more woes(trumpets 6&7) are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe(trumpet 6) is past. Look! The third woe(trumpet 7) is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world (Satan's) has become the kingdom of our Lord (Jehovah) and of his Christ (Jesus), and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Tishri15 or October 4/5 1914 through to Nisan 14 or March 26/27, 1918

Scholar thank you for that answer. Can you tell me when the 7th trumpet occurred? If it hasn't yet, when do you believe Scripturally speaking say it will occur?

And also, just to note that with your answer that the 42-months were from Oct 1914 - Mar 1918, you are saying that Jerusalem was trampled on by the nations for 2,520 years (607-1914) and just when the appointed time ended for them to stop being trampled on, instead the trampling continued 42 additional months until 1918.

[Luke 21: 24... and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.] 607-1914

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.] 1914- 1918

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

It can be concluded that minimum, 607 is arguable.

Fisherman, but what is the point of defending 607?

For WTS/GB/JW's 607 = 2,520 years to 1914 which = 42-months to 1918 which was supposed to be a time period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah which led to approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS.

But I have shown by use of the Scriptures and WTS publications that the 42-month period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah did not take place in 1914-1918 and it is still future to occur. So, based on that, what justification is there for approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS?

Even if 607 date were correct, it would not matter to the fact that the 7th trumpet did not sound in 1914. The 42-months were not 1914- 1918.

Jehovah is not happy with his people currently and does not approve of them, that is why Jehovah brings the 42-month period upon them. The WTS/GB knows this and that is why they teach that that happen in 1914-1918 period, claiming that since then all is well with them and Jehovah. That he approves of them. But again, that is not the case, the 42-months were not back then they are still to come.

See WTS/GB and Scriptures say:

[5-15-15 WT p.29 – Who, then, is Gog of Magog? To answer that question, we need to search the Scriptures to find out who attacks God’s people. The Bible speaks not only of the attack by ‘Gog of Magog’ but also of the attack by “the king of the north” and of the attack by “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not likely. The Bible is no doubt referring to the same attack under different names. Why can we draw that conclusion? Because the Scriptures tell us that all the nations of the earth will be involved in this final attack that prompts the war of Armageddon.—Rev. 16:14, 16.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

[6-1-81 WT – We come now to part three, dealing with judgment and execution. (Joel 3:2-16, 19) It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood.]

[12-1-61 WT p.714 par. 8 – The worst plague of locusts and worms ever foretold to come was that one of which Jehovah’s prophet Joel gave forewarning. That plague was not threatened by Jehovah God without a just cause occasioned by his people. That is why in Joel’s prophecy Jehovah presents himself as at war with his own people. Here let ~~Christendom~~ who today claims to be God’s people take serious notice!]

[1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people.]

[Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and I hid my face from them.’]

[3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]

[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks....13 And Jehovah* says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips,+ and they have removed their heart itself far away from me,+ and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught,]

Jorden

Posts by Jorden