Posts by deegee

8

How the Churches got the ‘End of the World’ wrong in 1492.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in 1453 constantinople (also known as byzantium), the last remnant of the once mighty roman empire was a christian island in an islamic sea.

the city had been seriously weakened during the holy fourth crusade (1202-04), when fellow christians of the catholic brand had besieged the city, captured it, and savagely sacked it.. ( who needs enemies when you have christian friends?).

a miniature of the siege, artist unknown.

deegee

The problem is that if Jesus’ (and Paul's) end of the world prophecies are taken at face value, it is clear that Jesus was expecting the world to end during his generation/lifetime.

Why was Jesus expecting the world to end during his generation?

According Bart D. Ehrman in his book: “Jesus – Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium”

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1999_ehrman_jesus-apocalyptic-prophet.pdf:

“Apocalypticism” was the order of the day at the time Jesus is said to have existed because of the history of the Promised Land. Jews in Palestine had been under direct foreign domination for most of the eight centuries prior to the time it is said Jesus was born. The Promised Land was conquered in succession by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Syrians, and the Romans. Jews resented the idea that they were answerable to a foreign power. They were, after all, the chosen people of the one true God of Israel, the God who had agreed to protect and defend them in exchange for their devotion. This was the land that he had promised them, and for many of them it must have been more than a little distressing, both politically and religiously, to know that ultimately someone else was in charge.

There was the belief that there would be an imminent intervention of God on behalf of his people, an intervention to be modeled on earlier acts of salvation as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures. Quite soon, God would reassert himself and bring this world back to himself, destroying the forces of evil and establishing his people as rulers over the earth. When this new Kingdom came, God would fulfil his promises to his people. This point of view, commonly called “apocalypticism”, was an ideology that tried to make sense of the oppression of the people of God. Jewish apocalyptic thought was evident in a number of writings both in the Hebrew Bible (e.g. book of Daniel) and from other sources.

Some of the earliest traditions about Jesus portray him as a Jewish apocalypticist who responded to the political and social crises of his day, including the domination of his nation by a foreign power, by proclaiming that his generation was living at the end of the age, that God would soon intervene on behalf of his people, sending a cosmic judge from heaven, the Son of Man who would destroy the forces of evil and set up God’s Kingdom. In preparation for his coming, the people of Israel needed to turn to God, trusting him as a kindly parent and loving one another as his special children. Those who refused to accept this message would be liable to the judgment of God, soon to arrive with the coming of the Son of Man.

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

DoubtfullyYours,

"Maybe sex will be only for pleasure. That would be the best blessing ever!!! It is the most pleasurable experience there is once the pregnancy fear is out of the way. Speaking from experience only.😉"

Hopefully Armageddon comes real soon so that you will be able to have sex since no such luck for anyone who dies before Armageddon:

According to Jesus' words at Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

'Jesus replied, “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.' (emphasis mine)

Watchtower 1987 6/1 p.31:

“Some have felt that Jesus was here referring to the heavenly resurrection, yet there are reasons to believe that his reply was about the earthly resurrection in the coming system of things. What reasons underlie this view? Those questioning Jesus did not believe in him or know about a heavenly resurrection. They asked about a Jewish family under the Law. In reply Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who hoped for life again on earth. (Genesis 42:38; Job 14:13-15; compare Hebrews 11:19.) Those patriarchs, and millions of others, who are raised on earth and who prove faithful will be like the angels. Though mortal, they will not die once God has declared them righteous for endless life. So if a Christian finds it hard to accept the conclusion that RESURRECTED ONES WILL NOT MARRY, he can be sure that God and Christ are understanding. And he can simply wait to see what occurs. ” (emphasis mine)

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

Steve2,

LongHairGal,

"I also was never entirely comfortable with the idea of that supposed final "test" after the thousand years. Sounds like mayhem all over again."

Certainly sounds like a SECOND ARMAGEDDON doesn't it?

There is no guarantee that you will actually live forever.

According to WT theology there will be a final test/second Armageddon at the end of Christ’s 1000-year reign as per Revelation 20:7-10. Revelation 20:7-10 has guaranteed and predetermined that persons will inevitably be destroyed as a result of failing that final test as it unequivocally states that the number of persons to be destroyed will be "as the sand of the sea".

It is an inevitable/inescapable fate that has already been predicted/predetermined by the Bible - it's a future that is not guaranteed.

7

MAYBE GOD DID MAKE "Adam and Steve" after all!

by Terry in

here is the box containing what we think we know:.

let’s think outside the box.

god is invisible but he made man in his “image.” what does an invisible image look like?.

deegee

Eve, a clone of Adam...........more proof that the Adam & Eve story in the Bible is based on mythology?

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

@Conanthebeliever,

According to WT theology, all of the dead are to be resurrected on earth.

How many people have ever lived on earth? 108 billion as at mid-2011 according to Population Reference Bureau estimates:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

So the resurrected would contribute approximately 1.8 billion persons to the Paradise earth population - the earth's population density just based on the estimated number of persons to be resurrected would be 5 times that of China.

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

TYPO: ......hopefully sthe fopod will last for the entire journey......

SHOULD READ: .......hopefully the food will last for the entire journey.......

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

The WT’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.

So how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?
More and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.

The longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:
https://shar.es/1Cko6N

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.EjBT1xRZ.dpuf

So immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet. Will other habitable, earth-like planets become available to facilitate this movement from planet to planet on a continuous basis ad infinitum?

Not to mention the fact that the time for interstellar travel between planets would have to be reduced from the current hundreds or thousands of years - but I suppose if man will be living forever it won't matter that immortal humans may need to spend hundreds or thousands of years travelling from one planet to the next; hopefully sthe fopod will last for the entire journey (some scientists claim that interstellar travel at warp speed is theoretically possible - perhaps this limitation is why Paradise has been delayed).

http://www.sciencealert.com/warp-speed-travel-is-theoretically-possible-according-to-top-astrophysicist

Things could get quite busy in space with the number of space craft and trips required to move billions of humans from planet to planet. Hopefully the JWs will have the necessary skills/expertise to set up such a space program given their stance against higher education, but I suppose it goes without saying: their God will help them set up their space program, so no need to worry about their lack of skills/expertise.

With no death, planets could quickly fill up within hundreds or thousands of years depending on their size.
If there was no death on planet earth since man’s beginning, for example, the earth’s population would be over 108 billion today (the earth's population density would be 5 times that of China):
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

So how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?
Will enough habitable, earth-like planets become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum in order to accommodate immortal human beings whose population would be growing continuously since there will be no death? and since the sun serving the already populated planets will eventually die?

It seems to me that the universe would have to be in continuous expansion mode so as to keep on producing more and more habitable, earth-like planets to accommodate this continuous, never-ending population growth of immortal humans OR, are all of the existing planets going to be converted into habitable, earth-like planets to accommodate:
– the continuous, never-ending population growth of immortal human beings ad infinitum?
– as well as the movement of immortal humans from planet to planet when the sun dies?

Perhaps this is why Armageddon and Paradise has not yet come?
or,
Maybe the simpler, uncomplicated option is just to create human beings as mortals so that they go through a life cycle just like everything else?

10

ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?

by Terry in

the intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.

it really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.. however, be warned!

human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine.

deegee

Conanthebeliever,

"I have found nothing to prove it is a cult-it just seems everyone is friendly"

Cult Warning 101:

Love Bombing - Cults offer instant friendship and acceptance.

http://www.freeminds.org/fmi_faq1.htm

http://freeminds.org/psych/lifton.htm

"I have finally found somewhere with others like me, who genuinely enjoy helping others."

Our psychological needs may sometimes disable our intellect from following those 9 steps of intellectual honesty recommended by Terry above but I think that applying those 9 steps will be a good way for you to critically examine the JWs and their teachings and come to your own conclusion as to what they really are about.

It has been said that religion satisfies psychological needs - our psychological needs may blind us so much so that we fail to engage our intellect in critically examining our choice of religion.

http://freeminds.org/psych/whyleave.htm

http://www.freeminds.org/psych/psych.htm

All the best.

17

Operation "Change meeting infrra-weekly" is a smokescreen

by LaFrancia in

the operation "change midweek meeting" probably was a move to divert attention of the brotherhood from layoffs to betel and the ranks of special pioneers, a smokescreen for the pedophilia scandal !

!operation "change meeting infrra-weekly" is a smokescreen.

what do you think ?.

deegee

Here are some comments from another forum regarding the reason for the scrapping of the Theocratic Ministry School:

"I keep wondering why they have dropped the Theocratic Ministry School name, and while I am uncertain of the exact format, it seems to me that children are excluded from the presentations and women are just collateral damage in that they get limited exposure for talks. In Australia if you run a “school” then those in charge have to get police background checks to work with children. If kids are excluded then might it be that elders need no longer submit themselves for police scrutiny.

When this was first introduced the WT fought the new law tooth and nail. How dare the Govt think that they have some say in who might be eligible for positions in the KH. Since they couldn’t get out of it they have cooperated but with sullen resentment. I wonder if that will now change since the new arrangement “seems” to omit working with children?? Without that check the Congregation has no idea who might be in charge since the WT seems to have an asymmetrical view of who qualifies for positions.

I have known of one instance where a molester who had abused his daughter(s), but had a builders ticket that was wanted by Bethel for a construction project. He was not d/f’d and kept in good standing in his hall to enable this use of his ticket. The R and F, never knew. So much corruption, the end always justified the means."

"YOU HAVE HIT the PROVERBIAL NAIL on the HEAD!!! EXACTLY … The WORD… ‘SCHOOL’ had to be REMOVED otherwise because of Child Protection certain Laws by Governments would have to be implemented so … BINGO!!… We all have a NEWLY WORDED MIDWEEK MEETING !! The Watchtower LAWYERS are Covering the GBs Back at every turn!!! It Happened back in Rutherford’s Time & still happening !!’ Trouble is the ordinary publishers aren’t aware of the SHENNANIGANS behind Closed Doors of Watchtower Lawyers Offices & then it is packaged up as NEW LIGHT or JEHOVAHS CHARIOT Moving Forward !!!"

"As the saying goes: “you never see smoke without fire”!

SMOKE: new name for theocratic ministry school.

FIRE: “In Australia if you run a ‘school’ then those in charge have to get police background checks to work with children. If kids are excluded then might it be that elders need no longer to submit themselves for police scrutiny.”

The new name for the theocratic ministry school is more than likely just a legal workaround/ legal gymnastics at its best – how clever!"

"The GB are Now TERRIFIED to have the Word … SCHOOL in any of their Meeting Names as then it IMPLIES Teaching Children which LEGALLY REQUIRES CRIMINAL RECORD CHECKS on ELDERS which could be Embarrassing if An Elder was found to Have a Dodgy Past!!"

10

Crises of Conscience by Raymond franz hardcopy book

by Olivia Wilde in

can anyone tell me where is the best place to buy the hardcopy book from?

i need it for a friend, i need to buy it from a place that the proceeds go to a good cause, not amazon,..

deegee

@Olivia

Just a suggestion - CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT, written by a former elder, makes a very good complement to CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE:

www.captivesofaconcept.com