Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf

and http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152#sessions

also offer insights into what transpired back in the day.

These are some of the thing which I think were significant contributors:

1. There was a maelstrom of conflicting ideas among the various early Christianities. The Paulines (who owe their origin to the Apostle Paul) eventually won out and became the dominant force in Christianity; all other groups were branded as heretics.

The first followers of Jesus were Jews, as Jesus himself was, and these followers saw Jesus as a wise teacher, not as God. It is said that Paul embellished the Jesus story in order to undermine the Jewish Christians so as to take power away from them.

2. Of great importance is the fact that some of Paul's writings pandered to the Roman authorities e.g. Paul's writing in Romans 13 calls for submission to governmental authorities, although passages in 1 Corinthians may be said to contradict this. 2 Thessalonians, a pseudonymous letter, also preaches a politically conservative and accommodative message.
(http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-24).

Given Paul's pandering to the Roman authorities, Constantine saw the political value of Pauline Christianity - Pauline Christianity was not just seen as a religion but as a political solution to bring about the unity and harmony and control of the populace which Constantine desired.

With this in mind, one can understand why Constantine and Theodosius promoted the Paulines out of all the other conflicting voices of early Christianity.

3. There were only a certain number of writings which were recognized as Christian writings by the Catholic Church. From that number, the books which comprise the NT were selected by the Catholic Church.

The Gospels, Pauline letters and other NT texts which were selected were a midrash on the OT scriptures and as such the OT and Torah came to be recognized as being relevant/important because of the NT writers.

28

Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

Interesting question Crazy Guy especially when one considers that the Paulines (who owed their origin to the Apostle Paul) was the group among the early Christianities that won out and became the dominant force in Christianity YET there was in fact an irreparable gulf between Paul and the Jerusalem Church as Paul was teaching his Gentile converts that with the advent and mission of Jesus, there was no longer a requirement to observe Jewish practices such as their dietary constraints whereas men from Jerusalem were telling Paul's Gentile converts that they had to follow the Laws set down by Moses. These men were teaching that as followers of Jesus, Paul's Gentile converts had to be Jews.

So one wonders why the Torah was not scrapped given Paul's differing view point regarding some Torah issues.

It seems to me however, that the reason why the Torah, and by extension, the entire Old Testament (OT), was retained by Christianity, was because of the need to prove that Jesus Christ was the person who fulfilled the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah.

This is however, not the case, since the prophets of old did not speak of a second coming of the Messiah. That the Messiah would come into the world but then have to come again is a New Testament (NT) idea. The NT writers forced the OT to conform to the NT - this is one of the reasons why the NT can be used as a Jewish polemic against Christianity.

6

Jehovah God,Christ Jesus ,IBSA ,why no direct communication between Heaven and Earth ?

by smiddy in

according to jehovah`s witnesses christ jesus was enthroned in heaven in 1914 .. the international bible students ,c.t.russell as president was approved byjesus christ shortly after as the channell approved by jehovah god to dispense spiritual food to his faithful followers here on earth.. why is it that after 100 years of jesus christ rule from heaven over his chosen people , the jw`s , that their is no direct contact between jesus christ and his earthly channell of communication ,namely the wtb&ts , and no direct contact from jehovah god either.. jw`s do not claim to have direct contact with god or jesus christ , isnt that strange ?

after 102 years ruling as king ?.

jesus christ is the greater moses , moses had direct contact with god and his people , so shouldnt the greater moses ,jesus christ have direct contact with his people especially since he is now ruling over them from heaven ?.

deegee

Smiddy,

Question:

Just wondering, has God ever communicated with you personally at any point in your life?

6

Jehovah God,Christ Jesus ,IBSA ,why no direct communication between Heaven and Earth ?

by smiddy in

according to jehovah`s witnesses christ jesus was enthroned in heaven in 1914 .. the international bible students ,c.t.russell as president was approved byjesus christ shortly after as the channell approved by jehovah god to dispense spiritual food to his faithful followers here on earth.. why is it that after 100 years of jesus christ rule from heaven over his chosen people , the jw`s , that their is no direct contact between jesus christ and his earthly channell of communication ,namely the wtb&ts , and no direct contact from jehovah god either.. jw`s do not claim to have direct contact with god or jesus christ , isnt that strange ?

after 102 years ruling as king ?.

jesus christ is the greater moses , moses had direct contact with god and his people , so shouldnt the greater moses ,jesus christ have direct contact with his people especially since he is now ruling over them from heaven ?.

deegee

What transpired with regard to the writing of the Bible gives a clear answer as to whether or not God actually communicates with anyone.

The writers of the New Testament (NT) did not consider the Hebrew Canon closed or aligned with today's 39 books. They freely cited Hebrew texts that are today considered NON-CANONICAL. The most influential of the Hebrew books was that of Enoch. It exercised a greater influence on the NT than all the other non-canonical books put together. It was eventually rejected by the Jews and subsequently Christians, yet quotations from the book of Enoch can be found in Jude and verbal echoes if it can be found in Matthew, Luke, John, Hebrews, Thessalonians, 1 Peter and Revelation and probably in other books.

There is no universally accepted Bible Canon:
Roman Catholics claim that the Bible contains 73 canonical (authentic) books, while most Protestants accept only 66 because they reject the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books. The Orthodox Christians accept 76 books.
The Ethiopian church, which traces its roots to the fourth-century church, claims a Canon of some 81 books.

Several ancient biblical manuscripts include non-canonical Christian writings.

It is commonly held by Bible scholars in recent centuries that mistakes were made with the selection of books for the NT Canon.

http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf

The Bible is a book of contradictions, inconsistencies, discrepancies, forgeries, myths, folklore, legends, fables, stories that did not actually occur, plagiarisms, midrash on scripture, revisionist history, failed prophecies or pretending to write prophesy when the writers were actually writing old history and not prophecy, morality that is incompatible with current standards of morality and ethics, inaccuracies - it is at odds with science and archaeology and historical facts in some instances; lots of writers of the Hebrew Bible, with editors/redactors trying to make the texts appear as though there were less writers; a nationalistic/political agenda propped up by god-talk which has led to the land-grab problem in the Middle East.

Yet we are told that God directed the thoughts of the men who wrote the Bible and inspired the wording of the Bible.

As far as I can see, God is a silent God - he does not communicate with anyone, or lead or direct anyone as we have been told/led to believe.

8

How the Churches got the ‘End of the World’ wrong in 1492.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in 1453 constantinople (also known as byzantium), the last remnant of the once mighty roman empire was a christian island in an islamic sea.

the city had been seriously weakened during the holy fourth crusade (1202-04), when fellow christians of the catholic brand had besieged the city, captured it, and savagely sacked it.. ( who needs enemies when you have christian friends?).

a miniature of the siege, artist unknown.

deegee

presents some very sound points regarding the Bible's end of the world eschatology which are worth considering - in summary:
1. The Hebrews considered themselves to be “God’s Chosen People”, yet Israel had been dispersed by the Assyrians and Judah was dominated by Egypt and then by Babylon.
2. In response to Judah’s captivity, its prophets promised the nation that God would restore them to their rightful position and that God would forever maintain the throne of David.
3. When exiles returned from Babylon, they set about creating a nation that was faithful to God.
4. Centuries passed but the Hebrews remained oppressed by successive Gentile powers. In response, the Jews anticipated imminent divine intervention.
5. Followers of Jesus Christ applied the prophets’ promises to their leaders and to themselves, anticipating an imminent divine intervention.
6. In every succeeding century, people kept expecting divine intervention during their life.

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

Hi Blondie,

4

MEMORIAL - Should JWs be commemorating the memorial of Christ's death?

by deegee in

1corinthians 11:25-26:“in the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “this cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” for whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the lord’s death until he comes.” (emphasis mine).

the jws teach that jesus christ returned in 1914 when his kingdom officially took power and he began active rulership toward all the world.

so the jws should have ceased commemorating the memorial of christ’s death since according to their theology, jesus returned in 1914.. http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/1914.html.

deegee

1Corinthians 11:25-26:
“In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death UNTIL HE COMES.” (emphasis mine)

The JWs teach that Jesus Christ returned in 1914 when his kingdom officially took power and he began active rulership toward all the world. So the JWs should have ceased commemorating the memorial of Christ’s death since according to their theology, Jesus returned in 1914.

http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/1914.html

*****What is Truth? (1932) p.48*****
“The prophecy of the Bible, fully supported by the physical facts in fulfilment thereof, shows that the SECOND COMING of Christ dates from the fall of the year 1914.” (emphasis mine)

*****Watchtower 1933 Dec 1 p.362*****
“The year 1914, therefore, marks the SECOND COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of glory.” (emphasis mine)

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php

So since Jesus Christ already came in 1914, no need to continue commemorating the memorial of his death.

8

How the Churches got the ‘End of the World’ wrong in 1492.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in 1453 constantinople (also known as byzantium), the last remnant of the once mighty roman empire was a christian island in an islamic sea.

the city had been seriously weakened during the holy fourth crusade (1202-04), when fellow christians of the catholic brand had besieged the city, captured it, and savagely sacked it.. ( who needs enemies when you have christian friends?).

a miniature of the siege, artist unknown.

deegee

One should soon realize that Christianity is a victim of Jewish Apocalypticism.

The earliest sources such as Mark and Matthew record Jesus as propounding an apocalyptic message – predictions of the coming judgment, of the imminent arrival of the Son of Man, of the future Kingdom on earth – and these pronouncements need to be taken seriously. Interestingly, however, this message begins to be toned down, muted by the end of the first century (e.g., in Luke), until it virtually disappears (e.g., in John) – by the time we get to John, the last of the gospels to be written, Jesus is now saying: “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” (John 3:17).

It appears that when the end never did arrive, Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly.

When the world didn’t end as Jesus said it would, rationalizations were put forth that Jesus’ prophecy was fulfilled or that he was prophesying about the distant future.

8

How the Churches got the ‘End of the World’ wrong in 1492.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in 1453 constantinople (also known as byzantium), the last remnant of the once mighty roman empire was a christian island in an islamic sea.

the city had been seriously weakened during the holy fourth crusade (1202-04), when fellow christians of the catholic brand had besieged the city, captured it, and savagely sacked it.. ( who needs enemies when you have christian friends?).

a miniature of the siege, artist unknown.

deegee

The problem is that if Jesus’ (and Paul's) end of the world prophecies are taken at face value, it is clear that Jesus was expecting the world to end during his generation/lifetime.

Why was Jesus expecting the world to end during his generation?

According Bart D. Ehrman in his book: “Jesus – Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium”

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1999_ehrman_jesus-apocalyptic-prophet.pdf:

“Apocalypticism” was the order of the day at the time Jesus is said to have existed because of the history of the Promised Land. Jews in Palestine had been under direct foreign domination for most of the eight centuries prior to the time it is said Jesus was born. The Promised Land was conquered in succession by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Syrians, and the Romans. Jews resented the idea that they were answerable to a foreign power. They were, after all, the chosen people of the one true God of Israel, the God who had agreed to protect and defend them in exchange for their devotion. This was the land that he had promised them, and for many of them it must have been more than a little distressing, both politically and religiously, to know that ultimately someone else was in charge.

There was the belief that there would be an imminent intervention of God on behalf of his people, an intervention to be modeled on earlier acts of salvation as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures. Quite soon, God would reassert himself and bring this world back to himself, destroying the forces of evil and establishing his people as rulers over the earth. When this new Kingdom came, God would fulfil his promises to his people. This point of view, commonly called “apocalypticism”, was an ideology that tried to make sense of the oppression of the people of God. Jewish apocalyptic thought was evident in a number of writings both in the Hebrew Bible (e.g. book of Daniel) and from other sources.

Some of the earliest traditions about Jesus portray him as a Jewish apocalypticist who responded to the political and social crises of his day, including the domination of his nation by a foreign power, by proclaiming that his generation was living at the end of the age, that God would soon intervene on behalf of his people, sending a cosmic judge from heaven, the Son of Man who would destroy the forces of evil and set up God’s Kingdom. In preparation for his coming, the people of Israel needed to turn to God, trusting him as a kindly parent and loving one another as his special children. Those who refused to accept this message would be liable to the judgment of God, soon to arrive with the coming of the Son of Man.

52

Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

by deegee in

the wt’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.. so how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?more and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.. the longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die:https://shar.es/1cko6n.

http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.ejbt1xrz.dpuf.

so immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet.

deegee

DoubtfullyYours,

"Maybe sex will be only for pleasure. That would be the best blessing ever!!! It is the most pleasurable experience there is once the pregnancy fear is out of the way. Speaking from experience only.😉"

Hopefully Armageddon comes real soon so that you will be able to have sex since no such luck for anyone who dies before Armageddon:

According to Jesus' words at Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

'Jesus replied, “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.' (emphasis mine)

Watchtower 1987 6/1 p.31:

“Some have felt that Jesus was here referring to the heavenly resurrection, yet there are reasons to believe that his reply was about the earthly resurrection in the coming system of things. What reasons underlie this view? Those questioning Jesus did not believe in him or know about a heavenly resurrection. They asked about a Jewish family under the Law. In reply Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who hoped for life again on earth. (Genesis 42:38; Job 14:13-15; compare Hebrews 11:19.) Those patriarchs, and millions of others, who are raised on earth and who prove faithful will be like the angels. Though mortal, they will not die once God has declared them righteous for endless life. So if a Christian finds it hard to accept the conclusion that RESURRECTED ONES WILL NOT MARRY, he can be sure that God and Christ are understanding. And he can simply wait to see what occurs. ” (emphasis mine)

deegee

Posts by deegee