Posts by deegee

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

........By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body which is made of matter or affect the brain which is made of matter?
"Neuroplasticity. Intentional behaviour changes the matter in the brain."

Definition of Neuroplasticity according to http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/mobileart.asp?articlekey=40362:

"The BRAIN'S ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the BRAIN to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.

BRAIN reorganization takes place by mechanisms such as "axonal sprouting" in which undamaged axons grow new nerve endings to reconnect neurons whose links were injured or severed. Undamaged axons can also sprout nerve endings and connect with other undamaged nerve cells, forming new neural pathways to accomplish a needed function.

For example, if one hemisphere of the BRAIN is damaged, the intact hemisphere may take over some of its functions. The BRAIN compensates for damage in effect by reorganizing and forming new connections between intact neurons. In order to reconnect, the neurons need to be stimulated through activity."

There is no mention of an immaterial soul in this definition so obviously there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter.

Also, it seems you are admitting that the soul is in fact the brain? I thought they were separate and independent of each other?

"The soul needs the brain to be functional in order to interact in the material world."

As stated above, there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter, so I do not see how it's possible for the soul to need the brain.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"While the soul cannot be reached through the scientific method..........It can be reached through intuition too. Search your own intuition and you will see."

Not quite sure I understand this statement but are you saying that a person's intuition is their soul?

Last time I checked, intuition is a function of the material brain:

Meditation and relaxation exercises quiet your rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of your intuitive right brain. This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Getting back to the issue of natural evil:

Your previous comments suggest that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve's fall - that is, it was The Fall that caused natural evil.

In excess of 99% of earth & biological scientists date the age of the earth at about 4.5 billion years ago, when the surface crust of the earth coalesced.

Fossil records of primitive life date back to about 3.5 billion years ago.

According to the Bible, Adam & Eve were created approximately 6,000 years ago.

What proof do you have that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

According to you, the soul lives on after death, so, have you heard from any of your friends or relatives who may have died?

If you have, did they tell you what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

The destruction or alteration of small parts of the brain during life have such a dramatic and profound effect on a person.

The fact that brain injury can alter the self, strongly implies that the brain is the true seat of the self.

The evidence shows that our identity, personality and behaviour are completely determined by the physical configuration of the brain, and that a change to this configuration can alter or eliminate any of them.

The following neurological disorders, for example, provide undeniable evidence that our identity, personality and behaviour are unified with the brain, and can be dramatically influenced by causes beyond our control which affect the brain:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/#part2:

* Anterograde or pure amnesia

* Near-total retrograde amnesia

* Callosal Disconnection

* Alien Hand Syndrome

* Paralysis and Denial

* Capgras’ Syndrome

* The Strange Case of Phineas Gage

* Frontotemporal Dementia

* Euphoria and Emotional “Deadness”

* Psychosis and Depression

* Behavioral Alterations Caused by Tumors

* Akinesia

* Environmental Dependency Syndrome

* Aphasia

* Akinetic Mutism

* Pain asymbolia

* Synesthesia

Brain injury and neurological disorders prove that consciousness is fundamentally a physical phenomenon and that the brain mediates and controls all aspects of consciousness; every part of the mind is entirely dependent on and controlled by the brain.

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

This has certainly been an interesting debate regarding the soul.

Are there aspects of the mind that owe nothing to the physical functioning of the brain?

Are there aspects of the mind that do not correspond to any physical area of the brain?

What exactly does the soul do that confers consciousness on us, and is this influence transmitted to the brain?

Does an immaterial soul interact with a brain and body of matter? Does the soul control the body at all?

If so, how exactly does it do this? What force or causal influence does it exert, and by what mechanism? By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain?

Why would God create an immutable/unchangeable soul-nature and then make it subject to the changeable and imperfect nature of a fallible material body, and judge it for the actions committed by that body?

Why do we even need such bodies, if at best they can only allow the true nature of the soul to shine through unaltered, and at worst obscure it?

What is God’s rationale for imprisoning souls in bodies and holding the souls responsible for the uncontrollable irrationalities of those bodies?

Where is the soul hiding?
"The soul is spiritual or metaphysical it can't be detected by scientific method."

To say something is “spiritual” or “immaterial” does not explain what it is, but only what it is not; all it means is that an immaterial object neither feels nor exerts any of the forces that act on matter.

In my opinion, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.

"There are animal brains much more sophisticated than humans and they don't produce consciousness."

Which animals are these?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

This is not what I envisioned but this is the mainstream Christian view. The fundamentalist view of Genesis is a very recent approach in history.

How did the Hebrew Scribes, the original writers of the Adam & Eve story, envision it when they wrote the Genesis account hundreds of years ago?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

........This soul enables humans to have consciousness.

- What exactly is the soul?

- What does the soul do?

- What function(s) is the soul responsible for?

- What function(s) is our brain responsible for?

- What proof do you have that it is the soul and not our brain that controls every aspect of our consciousness?

- Where is the soul hiding? Area after area of the brain has yielded up its secrets to the probing of neuroscience, and not a trace of it has been found.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

I'm not sure if lacking moral sense is the same as lacking consciousness or vice versa.

As far as I can see Adam & Eve were conscious but they were lacking moral sense - the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

It doesn't seem to me that their consciousness had anything to do with their lack of moral sense.

What God needed to give Adam & Eve was moral sense not consciousness as the Genesis account shows that were conscious:

According to Genesis 2:4-3:24:

Adam:

was able to take care of the Garden of Eden
was able to name the animals
was able to recognize that the animals did not make a suitable mate for him
was able to identify/recognize Eve as a suitable mate compared to the animals

Eve:

was able to carry on a conversation with a talking snake (BTW, If a snake started chatting with you, wouldn’t that raise an eyebrow or two? Somehow, “Eve” jumped right into a casual conversation with a snake, as if it were an every day thing)
was able to recall and repeat to the talking snake, God's instructions regarding eating from the various trees in the Garden
saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom

Adam & Eve:

Genesis 3:8 suggests that both Adam & Eve were able to carry on conversations with God before the Fall.

Adam & Eve's situation was comparable to a child who, though conscious, commits a crime but cannot be held criminally responsible because the child lacks moral sense at that age. Courts around the world show mercy to accused children - they cannot be prosecuted if they are under the age of criminal responsibility:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/five-year-old-boy-investigated-for-rape-in-manchester-is-one-of-70-children-under-10-to-be-accused-of-sex-attacks/ar-AAgJl0U?li=AAggNb9

When it came to moral sense, Adam & Eve were like an infant whose parent puts a plate of cookies in front of the infant and tells the infant not to eat any, with the parent being fully aware of what the infant will do.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

But if natural evil is someway somehow necessary to accomplish a greater good like eternal heaven?

If eternal heaven is the greater good then is human existence on a hostile earth some kind of experiment? game? entertainment for God?

A hostile earth is looking very much like an obstacle course where the thrills and the spills provide entertainment for God.