Posts by deegee

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
"BS."

It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

Interestingly, meditation is one of the means used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance.

While in the trance/altered state of consciousness, the medium channels information from the "spirits of the dead" whom the medium has contacted, who speak through the medium, or via automatic writing (hypergraphia) in which the medium, churns out meticulously detailed, elaborate (and usually incomprehensible) text in a native or different language.

Slate writing, artwork, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) etc, are also means by which the "spirits of the dead" communicate with the medium.

It is puzzling that the mechanism of meditation is used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance to contact the dead - which you deny - AND YET this same mechanism of meditation can also be used to quiet our rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of our intuitive right brain which opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

"intuition is not the soul but it's a function of it."

So, it seems the spirit medium is not actually contacting the dead since you deny this, but, unknown to them, they are in fact accessing their intuition, a function of their soul, when they engage in meditation as a precursor to a séance?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

As I have stated before, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.

In essence, these claims are a smokescreen to protect unsatisfactory assertions from further questioning.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Moral or natural evil requires consciousness to be perceived. So only after creation of the soul, humans were able to perceive evil."

What does the ability to perceive natural evil have to do with the occurrence of natural evil?

Apparently you misunderstood my question, my question was not about whether or not natural evil can be perceived by humans but about the timing of its occurrence.

The cataclysmic destruction of the dinosaurs en masse clearly shows that natural evil existed BEFORE humans came on the scene and that its occurrence has nothing to do with the Fall of Adam & Eve.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Souls after the death of the body are only in heaven, purgatory or hell. They can't contact the living and vice versa."

Interesting.

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

........By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body which is made of matter or affect the brain which is made of matter?
"Neuroplasticity. Intentional behaviour changes the matter in the brain."

Definition of Neuroplasticity according to http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/mobileart.asp?articlekey=40362:

"The BRAIN'S ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the BRAIN to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.

BRAIN reorganization takes place by mechanisms such as "axonal sprouting" in which undamaged axons grow new nerve endings to reconnect neurons whose links were injured or severed. Undamaged axons can also sprout nerve endings and connect with other undamaged nerve cells, forming new neural pathways to accomplish a needed function.

For example, if one hemisphere of the BRAIN is damaged, the intact hemisphere may take over some of its functions. The BRAIN compensates for damage in effect by reorganizing and forming new connections between intact neurons. In order to reconnect, the neurons need to be stimulated through activity."

There is no mention of an immaterial soul in this definition so obviously there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter.

Also, it seems you are admitting that the soul is in fact the brain? I thought they were separate and independent of each other?

"The soul needs the brain to be functional in order to interact in the material world."

As stated above, there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter, so I do not see how it's possible for the soul to need the brain.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"While the soul cannot be reached through the scientific method..........It can be reached through intuition too. Search your own intuition and you will see."

Not quite sure I understand this statement but are you saying that a person's intuition is their soul?

Last time I checked, intuition is a function of the material brain:

Meditation and relaxation exercises quiet your rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of your intuitive right brain. This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Getting back to the issue of natural evil:

Your previous comments suggest that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve's fall - that is, it was The Fall that caused natural evil.

In excess of 99% of earth & biological scientists date the age of the earth at about 4.5 billion years ago, when the surface crust of the earth coalesced.

Fossil records of primitive life date back to about 3.5 billion years ago.

According to the Bible, Adam & Eve were created approximately 6,000 years ago.

What proof do you have that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

According to you, the soul lives on after death, so, have you heard from any of your friends or relatives who may have died?

If you have, did they tell you what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

The destruction or alteration of small parts of the brain during life have such a dramatic and profound effect on a person.

The fact that brain injury can alter the self, strongly implies that the brain is the true seat of the self.

The evidence shows that our identity, personality and behaviour are completely determined by the physical configuration of the brain, and that a change to this configuration can alter or eliminate any of them.

The following neurological disorders, for example, provide undeniable evidence that our identity, personality and behaviour are unified with the brain, and can be dramatically influenced by causes beyond our control which affect the brain:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/#part2:

* Anterograde or pure amnesia

* Near-total retrograde amnesia

* Callosal Disconnection

* Alien Hand Syndrome

* Paralysis and Denial

* Capgras’ Syndrome

* The Strange Case of Phineas Gage

* Frontotemporal Dementia

* Euphoria and Emotional “Deadness”

* Psychosis and Depression

* Behavioral Alterations Caused by Tumors

* Akinesia

* Environmental Dependency Syndrome

* Aphasia

* Akinetic Mutism

* Pain asymbolia

* Synesthesia

Brain injury and neurological disorders prove that consciousness is fundamentally a physical phenomenon and that the brain mediates and controls all aspects of consciousness; every part of the mind is entirely dependent on and controlled by the brain.

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

This has certainly been an interesting debate regarding the soul.

Are there aspects of the mind that owe nothing to the physical functioning of the brain?

Are there aspects of the mind that do not correspond to any physical area of the brain?

What exactly does the soul do that confers consciousness on us, and is this influence transmitted to the brain?

Does an immaterial soul interact with a brain and body of matter? Does the soul control the body at all?

If so, how exactly does it do this? What force or causal influence does it exert, and by what mechanism? By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain?

Why would God create an immutable/unchangeable soul-nature and then make it subject to the changeable and imperfect nature of a fallible material body, and judge it for the actions committed by that body?

Why do we even need such bodies, if at best they can only allow the true nature of the soul to shine through unaltered, and at worst obscure it?

What is God’s rationale for imprisoning souls in bodies and holding the souls responsible for the uncontrollable irrationalities of those bodies?

Where is the soul hiding?
"The soul is spiritual or metaphysical it can't be detected by scientific method."

To say something is “spiritual” or “immaterial” does not explain what it is, but only what it is not; all it means is that an immaterial object neither feels nor exerts any of the forces that act on matter.

In my opinion, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.

"There are animal brains much more sophisticated than humans and they don't produce consciousness."

Which animals are these?