sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
BTW, where does your reason come from? Your immaterial soul or your brain?
"Both if you mean reason as intellect.
What's the point of God creating an immaterial soul that does the same thing as the brain? Why the duplication?
"But the ability to decide, the will, comes entirely from the soul."
How are you able to distinguish what your brain does from what your immaterial soul does?
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"For instance you interpret these events like being communication with the dead. But there's an interpretation this event is about communication with demons."
Your argument was never about the TYPE of discarnate spirit (spirit of the "conscious" dead or a demon) which a spiritist/medium contacts.
Your argument was simply that:
"Spiritism/Spiritualism is BS"
- that is, it is BS regardless of the TYPE of discarnate spirit being contacted be it the spirit of the "conscious" dead or a demon.
In any event, I'm baffled that a devout Catholic like you views contacting demons as BS when the Catholic church is infamously known for its legendary exorcisms.
Just for the record here's one scripture which explicitly warns against communicating with/consulting the dead via a medium:
Deuteronomy 18:9-12:
"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who CONSULTS THE DEAD. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord."
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"The Bible texts you mentioned can be interpreted by several ways and I can't use my reason to select the best interpretation. I don't need to accept things that are not clear in the Bible."
This is not true. I am sorry, but I have to say that you are being dishonest.
The Bible texts regarding spiritism (not all were included in my comments above) are very clear, unambiguous, unequivocal and explicit regarding the dangers of and penalties for engaging in spiritism.
".....I can't use my reason to select the best interpretation"
BTW, where does your reason come from? Your immaterial soul or your brain?
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"Spiritism/Spiritualism is BS."
According to the Bible it isn't.
I can however see why you have decided to go against the Bible in this:
Based on what the Bible states regarding spiritism/spiritualism as per my comments above, it should definitely be possible to contact the "conscious" dead to ask them about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.
Yet no one has been able to do this. No wonder spiritism/spiritualism is BS.......go figure.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Is the apostle Paul's encounter with a psychic medium also BS?
Acts 16:16-19:
"Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, 'These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.'
And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, 'I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.' And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities."
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
If
Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS
then why did Saul consult a spirit medium to conjure up the spirit of the deceased prophet Samuel, to ask his counsel regarding the pending Philistine attack?
Why was Saul penalized with death for breaking God's Law regarding consulting the dead if consulting the dead is all BS?
Saul was a firm believer in this method for contacting the dead Samuel:
1 Samuel 28:3-22:
"Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah, in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land.
Then the Philistines gathered together, and came and encamped at Shunem. So Saul gathered all Israel together, and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.
Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”
And his servants said to him, “In fact,there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”
So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”
Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”
And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”
Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.
Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.
And the woman came to Saul and saw that he was severely troubled, and said to him, “Look, your maidservant has obeyed your voice, and I have put my life in my hands and heeded the words which you spoke to me.
Now therefore, please, heed also the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you; and eat, that you may have strength when you go on your way.”
According to the Bible, Saul died because of consulting a spirit medium for guidance:
1 Chronicles 10:13-14:
"Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord."
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"Sorry but I really think Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS. I can't even bother to discuss things like that."
That's a very strange thing for a Bible believer to say given the Bible's warning against engaging in Spiritism. Even the Bible agrees that the "spirits of the dead" can be contacted via this means:
Leviticus 19:31:
"Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12:
"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord."
Leviticus 20:6:
"I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them. I will cut him off from his people."
Leviticus 20:27:
"A man or woman who is a medium or a spiritist among you must be put to death."
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Your replies to my comments seem to be selective. No comment on the following?
So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
"BS."
It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.
Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"So did you have found meaning in nihilism (oblivion)?"
It seems to me that you believe that life can only have meaning if you can "live on" after to death.
It seems to me that you are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that you are no more at death.
Perhaps this defeat of self-importance is what led man to invent the concept of the immortality of the soul. Our narcissistic feeling of self-importance makes it difficult for us to accept that we become nothing at death so we have found a way to immortalize and perpetuate ourselves.
And so in comes reproduction.........reproduction is nature's solution to death - we live on, immortalize and perpetuate ourselves by having children.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
"BS."
It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.
Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.
Interestingly, meditation is one of the means used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance.
While in the trance/altered state of consciousness, the medium channels information from the "spirits of the dead" whom the medium has contacted, who speak through the medium, or via automatic writing (hypergraphia) in which the medium, churns out meticulously detailed, elaborate (and usually incomprehensible) text in a native or different language.
Slate writing, artwork, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) etc, are also means by which the "spirits of the dead" communicate with the medium.
It is puzzling that the mechanism of meditation is used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance to contact the dead - which you deny - AND YET this same mechanism of meditation can also be used to quiet our rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of our intuitive right brain which opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.
"intuition is not the soul but it's a function of it."
So, it seems the spirit medium is not actually contacting the dead since you deny this, but, unknown to them, they are in fact accessing their intuition, a function of their soul, when they engage in meditation as a precursor to a séance?
