Posts by deegee

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Evil can only be isolated (and even this is only possible by ceasing free-will).
Evil is inevitable and necessary in all possible worlds."

You have claimed that we currently live in a world which is fallen and full of evil precisely because it is the only environment in which God can allow us to exercise our free will. But it is clear from the story of Satan that this is inaccurate.

Satan was able to exercise free will in heaven, which is supposed to be a place of perfection directly in God’s presence. If this is the case then there exists a possible world (heaven) in which there is free will but also NO EVIL.

This debunks your claim that God has to allow evil to exist in order to make room for human free will.

Also, clearly according to this particular passage God could have created a world in which there was room for BOTH free will and the complete absence of evil.

This is incredibly important.
If God could indeed create a world which is both perfectly good but also provides the environment for free will to exist, then why didn’t he do that with us?

If there is indeed a possible world in which there is both free will and no evil then why did God not place us in that world?

Following on from all of the above, it is clear that free will is not of any importance to God as you claim, so, can you please therefore explain where evil came from without employing any arguments from free will?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"God cannot totally reveal Himself because this act would destroy the free-will of humans. This happens immediately at the hour of death of every human being."

I think not since Satan proved otherwise.

Satan did exercise his free will and sin against God in God's direct presence, clearly showing us that it is possible for someone to be in God’s direct presence and still have the free will to sin.

This debunks your claim that people cannot have free will while in the presence of God.

Also, Satan committed evil in a place in which there is supposed to be no evil, right in the presence of God. If indeed Satan, an awesomely perfect creature, can sin and rebel against God while in heaven, what hope do mere human beings have of not doing the same?

So according to what we understand from the devil, human beings should be able to arrive in heaven and still sin.
This means that a person can arrive in heaven, commit a sin and God will then condemn them to eternal death. Eventually, we should expect that everybody will end up in hell.

ALSO,
If God values free will right up until the point of death when he simply removes free will, it doesn’t make any sense for God to create a world in which we have free will.

Think about this chronologically. A person is going to live for eternity, without time. But a person is going to live in this world for approximately seventy years if they are lucky.

So human beings are going to spend a period of time which does not even count as a spec in the ocean of eternity having free will. The rest of the time they will not have any free will. How can it be then that God values free will so highly? It is not logical.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Our physical bodies and some features of our minds came to existence through natural laws.
Only our immortal soul was made to be an image of God.
Natural disasters are inevitable consequences of natural laws. And natural laws are necessary in a world that harbors free-willed agents limited in a physical world.
Evil can only be isolated (and even this is only possible by ceasing free-will). That's why Hell must exist. And that's why there's no free-will in Heaven.
Evil is inevitable and necessary in all possible worlds."

If God supposedly can create a dimension of existence (Heaven, the afterlife according to you) to be free from:

1. The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

2. The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

7.Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

- Why couldn't he do similarly for the physical/natural world?

- What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they do not exist?

- What does God get out of having these two dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

- If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option
to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Are you avoiding my questions?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

I note that you have selectively answered my questions.

According to you, God created one place where there is no free will and no evil (Heaven) and another place where there is free will and evil (the physical/natural world).

AGAIN I ASK:

If God supposedly can create a dimension of existence (Heaven/the afterlife according to you) to be free from:

1. The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

2. The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

7.Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

- Why couldn't he do similarly for the physical/natural world?

- What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they do not exist?

- What does God get out of having these two dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

- If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option
to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Evil is inevitable and necessary in all possible worlds."

So God created one place where there is no free will and no evil (Heaven) and another place where there is free will and evil (the physical/natural world).

This clearly indicates then, that God is both good AND EVIL.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Evil can only be isolated (and even this is only possible by ceasing free-will). That's why Hell must exist. And that's why there's no free-will in Heaven."

1. So why not just send the people who are destined for Hell to Heaven as well and just cease their free will?

If free will can be ceased as you claim then no one should be sent to Hell. Everyone, both good and bad, should be sent to Heaven and then it's just simply a matter of ceasing their free will and everything will be fine and dandy.

2. So God created one place where there is no free will and no evil (Heaven) and another place where there is free will and evil (the physical/natural world).

As I've asked before:

- Why couldn't God do similarly for the physical/natural world?

- What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they do not exist?

- What does God get out of having these 2 dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

- If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option
to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

You still have not answered my questions.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Now that you've told us all about free will and zero sum could you please answer my questions by providing EXPLICIT and DIRECT answers to the questions asked?

If God supposedly can design a dimension of existence (the afterlife according to you) to be free from:

1. The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

2. The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

7.Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

Why couldn't he do similarly for the physical/natural world?

What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they don't exist?

What does God get out of having these 2 dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Our physical bodies and some features of our minds came to existence through natural laws.
Only our immortal soul was made to be an image of God."

If God supposedly can design a dimension of existence (the afterlife according to you) to be free from:

1. The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

2. The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

7.Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

Why couldn't he do similarly for the physical/natural world?

What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they don't exist?

What does God get out of having these 2 dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?