Posts by deegee

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Sorry but I really think Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS. I can't even bother to discuss things like that."

That's a very strange thing for a Bible believer to say given the Bible's warning against engaging in Spiritism. Even the Bible agrees that the "spirits of the dead" can be contacted via this means:

Leviticus 19:31:

"Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12:

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord."

Leviticus 20:6:

"I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them. I will cut him off from his people."

Leviticus 20:27:

"A man or woman who is a medium or a spiritist among you must be put to death."

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Your replies to my comments seem to be selective. No comment on the following?

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
"BS."

It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"So did you have found meaning in nihilism (oblivion)?"

It seems to me that you believe that life can only have meaning if you can "live on" after to death.

It seems to me that you are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that you are no more at death.

Perhaps this defeat of self-importance is what led man to invent the concept of the immortality of the soul. Our narcissistic feeling of self-importance makes it difficult for us to accept that we become nothing at death so we have found a way to immortalize and perpetuate ourselves.

And so in comes reproduction.........reproduction is nature's solution to death - we live on, immortalize and perpetuate ourselves by having children.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
"BS."

It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

Interestingly, meditation is one of the means used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance.

While in the trance/altered state of consciousness, the medium channels information from the "spirits of the dead" whom the medium has contacted, who speak through the medium, or via automatic writing (hypergraphia) in which the medium, churns out meticulously detailed, elaborate (and usually incomprehensible) text in a native or different language.

Slate writing, artwork, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) etc, are also means by which the "spirits of the dead" communicate with the medium.

It is puzzling that the mechanism of meditation is used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance to contact the dead - which you deny - AND YET this same mechanism of meditation can also be used to quiet our rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of our intuitive right brain which opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

"intuition is not the soul but it's a function of it."

So, it seems the spirit medium is not actually contacting the dead since you deny this, but, unknown to them, they are in fact accessing their intuition, a function of their soul, when they engage in meditation as a precursor to a séance?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

As I have stated before, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.

In essence, these claims are a smokescreen to protect unsatisfactory assertions from further questioning.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Moral or natural evil requires consciousness to be perceived. So only after creation of the soul, humans were able to perceive evil."

What does the ability to perceive natural evil have to do with the occurrence of natural evil?

Apparently you misunderstood my question, my question was not about whether or not natural evil can be perceived by humans but about the timing of its occurrence.

The cataclysmic destruction of the dinosaurs en masse clearly shows that natural evil existed BEFORE humans came on the scene and that its occurrence has nothing to do with the Fall of Adam & Eve.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Souls after the death of the body are only in heaven, purgatory or hell. They can't contact the living and vice versa."

Interesting.

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

........By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body which is made of matter or affect the brain which is made of matter?
"Neuroplasticity. Intentional behaviour changes the matter in the brain."

Definition of Neuroplasticity according to http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/mobileart.asp?articlekey=40362:

"The BRAIN'S ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the BRAIN to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.

BRAIN reorganization takes place by mechanisms such as "axonal sprouting" in which undamaged axons grow new nerve endings to reconnect neurons whose links were injured or severed. Undamaged axons can also sprout nerve endings and connect with other undamaged nerve cells, forming new neural pathways to accomplish a needed function.

For example, if one hemisphere of the BRAIN is damaged, the intact hemisphere may take over some of its functions. The BRAIN compensates for damage in effect by reorganizing and forming new connections between intact neurons. In order to reconnect, the neurons need to be stimulated through activity."

There is no mention of an immaterial soul in this definition so obviously there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter.

Also, it seems you are admitting that the soul is in fact the brain? I thought they were separate and independent of each other?

"The soul needs the brain to be functional in order to interact in the material world."

As stated above, there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter, so I do not see how it's possible for the soul to need the brain.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

"While the soul cannot be reached through the scientific method..........It can be reached through intuition too. Search your own intuition and you will see."

Not quite sure I understand this statement but are you saying that a person's intuition is their soul?

Last time I checked, intuition is a function of the material brain:

Meditation and relaxation exercises quiet your rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of your intuitive right brain. This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

deegee

John_Mann,

Getting back to the issue of natural evil:

Your previous comments suggest that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve's fall - that is, it was The Fall that caused natural evil.

In excess of 99% of earth & biological scientists date the age of the earth at about 4.5 billion years ago, when the surface crust of the earth coalesced.

Fossil records of primitive life date back to about 3.5 billion years ago.

According to the Bible, Adam & Eve were created approximately 6,000 years ago.

What proof do you have that natural evil did not exist before Adam & Eve?