sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"Jesus' death erases the guilty of original sin in every baptized person."
So, if a person does not get baptized does Jesus' death still erase the guilt of original sin from that person?
"The consequence of original sin is a broken human nature. Humans in this condition commit personal sins"
But if Jesus' death erases the guilty of original sin in every baptized person why is human nature still broken such that humans continue to sin and commit evil acts?
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed. It's a complete mystery."
"Obviously there was another possibility or possibilities because Jesus prayed for the possibility to get another option "take this cup from me".
And the crucifixion made no sense to his disciples."
Your foregoing comments claim that Jesus' death has nothing to do with cleansing/ridding the earth of the evil and suffering as a result of the original sin committed by Adam & Eve.
So, if not Jesus' death, then, does God have a different plan for cleansing/ridding the earth of the evil and suffering which has been as a result of the original sin committed by Adam & Eve?
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Is the Original Sin committed by Adam & Eve in anyway responsible for the evil and suffereing which we see in the world today?
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Is the Original Sin committed by Adam & Eve in anyway responsible for the evil and suffering which we see in the world today
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.
"That's a JW interpretation. Adam and Eve were "perfect" too but they needed the tree of life (to sustain their lives?)."
This therefore means that if Jesus was given access to the "tree of life" he would live forever as a human. It would therefore not be possible for him to die a natural death as long as he had access to the "tree of life".
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?
"Some point before the original sin."
The angels still had free will AFTER the original sin was committed:
- Angels had sexual intercourse with humans who gave birth to the Nephilim according to Genesis
- Revelation 12: Satan and his demons were cast down to the earth after losing their battle with Michael, the archangel.
"It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human....."
So God didn't have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life.
Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.
God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live.
Yet he didn't foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach - only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.
Or is it that God is not omniscient - not even of high intelligence - because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later? Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their toddler and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.
"........This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled."
So God took away their free will because they rebelled?
"When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil)."
So the person has not lost their free will. Now that they have seen God for themselves, they have simply exercised their free will and chosen to no longer do evil things.
"Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin."
I do have free will in this instance - I decided that the ton of gold was worth far far more than the pin and therefore chose the ton of gold instead of the pin.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
Your explanations regarding the loss of free will by the beings in heaven are interesting to say the least.
Where did you get these explanations from? I do not see your explanations the Bible.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
".....the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah." "Jesus itself called his resurrection this way."
BTW, the book of Jonah was fiction. Most of the book of Jonah was composed or plagiarized from material drawn from Exodus, 1Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Psalms and other books:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/83590/jonah-fiction?size=20&page=1
"Historical consensus about Jesus outside the Bible is only about his baptism and crucifixion."
Please provide proof of this historical consensus - there are legends surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann
What was the source of your vision then?
"God."
VERSUS
Did you receive this vision from God himself?
"Idk. Probably not."
You are contradicting yourself.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann,
"As a human he was doomed to die."
Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.
"There's about 4 views in CC about the crucifixion of Christ."
So why has God left the CC floundering? Why doesn't God speak to the CC and tell them which is the correct view? After all, he gave you a vision.
"Baptism removes the guilty of this sin because the death of Christ."
Hebrews (9:26):
"Christ appeared "once at the end of the ages" to "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
along with the other scriptures which I quoted above, say nothing about baptism removing the guilty of this sin (original sin) because the death of Christ.
There is NO MENTION of baptism in any of these scriptures. These scriptures make no connection between baptism and Jesus' death. It is you who have made this connection and read this into the scriptures regarding the purpose of Jesus' death.
