You were the one who said they weren't a faith group and you, Slimboyfat, were the one who said they were only persecuted by the Nazis as a race.
David_Jay
JoinedPosts by David_Jay
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96
Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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96
Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
Slimboyfat,
If it was just about doing away with a race, why did synagogues, Jewish artifacts, and even Jewish celebrations come under attack by the Nazis? If it was just about race, then what about Gentile converts to Judaism during the Third Reich? Were they allowed to go about their lives as Jews since they were not "racially" Jewish?
Aish.com, a Jewish site, in its article "Was the Holocaust A War Against the Jews?" has this to say about this issue:
The Nazi war against the Jews was both racial and spiritual. Their enmity to all that Judaism represented had its roots in history, in the ancient struggle to prevent the dissemination of Divinity in man's world. This unique aspect of Nazi Germany's war on the Jews was expressed eloquently in the Agudath Israel's underground newspaper in the Warsaw ghetto:
"Amalek (an Edomite people who attacked the Jews immediately upon their Exodus from Egypt) is concerned not so much with the Jews as with Judaism: the Jewish outlook, the Jewish worldview, the Jewish sense of honesty, the Jewish sense of justice, the Jewish attitude toward the indigent and the deprived… All of these are diametrically opposed to Amalekism… Amalek and Haman are targeting the Jews less as a people than as a Divine people."3
Hitler himself said:
“Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I am freeing man from the restraints of an intelligence that has taken charge, from the dirty and degrading self-mortifications of a false vision called conscience and morality, and from the demands of a freedom and personal independence which only a very few can bear.”4
The author Esther Farbstein observes:
The Holocaust was an unprecedented occurrence that combined a war on Judaism with a war on the Jews. The elements of the war against the Jewish spirit (e.g., abuse of rabbis, violence on Jewish holidays, desecration of synagogues and sacred objects, destruction of religious books) were not only a means of spiritual oppression. They were an end just as the killing was an end.
This unique aspect was rooted in anti-Semitic ideology and especially in Nazi beliefs. For the first time in history, biological race was linked with the human spirit, culture, and morality. The "Jewish germ" was not only the blood that had intermingled with that of the other nations, but the principles of morality, the spirit of liberalism, and the civilization that Judaism had introduced to Europe – everything that represented the antithesis of Nazism. Hitler, as the successor to the nineteenth-century anti-Semites, preached against Judaism no less than again the Jew.
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96
Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
Let me put it another way...
This all started when you said that the only people of faith who were in the concentration camps of the Holocaust were the Jehovah's Witnesses and a handful of other groups. I mentioned that the majority of people, the Jews, also were a faith group. You said no.
What if I said that the only reason this debate between us is going on was due to the fact that you were not intelligent enough to understand the issues being discussed, that your ethnic background or race made you somehow incapable of seeing facts.
I am sure you would strongly agree. I have no idea of your ethnic background or race. I don't even know your age or gender.
But what if I said that did not matter? What if I insisted that my definition of you is the only right one and that you have to accept the label I give you and nothing else?
My saying you were not worthy or capable or had not the right to declare for yourself what you are and choose to be is hateful. It would stem from my not seeing you as a complete person or somehow sub-human when compared to myself. "I have the right to decide what you can be called but you, yourself don't." Why do I get to decide for you? What makes me say you don't have that right? Hate for others is often the reason.
That is what Mr. Campos meant. Non-Jews have a sad history of telling Jews what they are and what the can or should be. This has often resulted in religions like Christianity persecuting the Jews in the Spanish Inquisition, the pogroms, and eventually the Holocaust.
Regardless of what JWs say, the Holocaust was about the Jews mainly. It was not Satan's attack against the JWs, as they like to view it. It was all due to the Nazi hatred for the Jews who declared to them "you are a race that must be exterminated."
Jews are more than a race, Mr. Campos was saying. They are a people made up and bound together by so much more.
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Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
Slimboy,
The point Mr. Campos made was that Jews have the right to define themselves and tell others, "no, I will not be defined by you" if they so choose.
Mr. Campos stated that it is an injustice for people to decide how to label people, the way JWs label others, for example, as good or evil. Jews see themselves as a people tied not by race but by a common "ethnoreligious" foundation, to borrow his word. To tell Jews, "no you can't say you are a faith," or " no, I decide if you are a race or not," is what Mr. Campos meant by an act of hatred.
You say they are not a faith group, but you are not a Jew. Mr. Campos, a Jew, says, "yes, we are," but you still disagree. Whose definition of a Jew is correct? Yours? Or the view of the Jews themselves?
Would you like it if others stated that everything you claimed to be was wrong, and that you had to accept their definition about you? Don't you and others have the right to self-identification? Why is your definition better than that of Mr. Campos? What places you in a better position than a Jew to tell a Jew who and what they are or what they may or may not be?
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Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
by rebel8 inanyone here watching this on netflix?.
it's funny, kind of silly at times, but somewhat relatable.. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ellie-kemper-kimmy-schmidt-character-798166.
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David_Jay
I saw it. Perfect show to watch if you've been in a cult. Hilarious and brilliant.
New season begins this Spring.
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We are living in the 21st Century , When , Are We Going to Bury Religious Superstition ? Once and for all ?
by smiddy inthe christian bible / cannon is different , depending on what religion you profess ,around the world.. russian orthodox ,greek orthodox ,christian gnostics ,roman catholics , polish national catholics ,c.of e , etc,etc,.
the very many christian bible translations that exist today differ according to different interpretations of the translators.. the jewish translators of the hebrew scriptures add a whole new concept to the traditional interpretation by christian translators of the old testament... throw in the mix all of the fundamentalist religions that have sprung up these past couple of centuries including the j.w.`s , s.d.a.`s , mormons , t.v.
evangelists , etc, etc,.
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David_Jay
I hear where you are coming from, Smiddy.
But obviously you are looking at everything from a bit of a closed prospective. Only Christianity deals in "faith." Other religions don't use the concept, at least not in the same manner.
Buddhism doesn't require any type of faith or belief in a deity.
Judaism sees faith or belief in concepts and creeds as irrelevant to their theology.
Shinto is about ritual, not much else.
Only Christianity makes a big deal about what one mentally accepts or mentally acknowledges, making faith a requisite to membership or acceptance. That is why Christian religions have a hierarchy and others often don't have a central authority (the three I mentioned don't have such a thing or an official set of beliefs). Christian leaders keep the membership in check based on claimants to a creed of some sort, and those that don't make such a claim get the boot.
Other religions are not like that. Many Christians and former Christians have had little to no exposure to non-Christian thought and make broad judgments that are neither accurate nor show any critical thinking based on study or evidence of other religious movements.
Forms of Buddhism and Reform Judaism, for instance, do not allow for people to make religious choices on the basis of credulity, superstition, or against reason and science. And since faith does not play a role in these theologies, it is hard to apply some of your views universally to all religions.
This is not to say you don't have a good point. Those movements where faith replaces reason or logic show how many people are willing to jump to conclusions without first fully studying all the options and ensuring their conclusions are accurate, and that is indeed sad.
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Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
Paul,
Mr. Campos had a lot more in his email to say, but I shortened it. He mentioned, however, the anti-Jewish proselytizing that the JWs have been doing among his people.
It was rather lengthy, and we discussed that the part should probably be cut for brevity, but reading your comment makes me think I should have included it.
What you are likely unaware of is that Witnesses demand Jews who show interest to leave behind their culture, dress, and customs in exchange for the western-Gentile ones. None of the Jewish customs are pagan, and the first century Jewish Christians like the apostle Paul observed Jewish traditions and law. (Acts 21.17-26) JWs do not transcend cultural barriers but demand people's to abandon anything and everything that is not Watchtower, telling people that their own customs are evil. What you call transcending is actually destruction.
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96
Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
In interest of my discussion with Slimboyfat, I searched for help from a couple of friends. The following is an excerpt from an email sent by a Jewish teacher of religion, Carlos Campos, who having read the post and discussion and hearing my question, has allowed me to post the following:
"We Jews are technically-speaking an 'ethnoreligion,' or a tribe. We do not share one single line of DNA, and traditionally we have included non-Hebrews in the tribe since the time of Abraham. Today there are Semitic Jews, Asian Jews, African (Black) Jews, and Latino Jews. I myself am Sephardic.
It is not accurate to say that Jews who were victims of the Shoah were chosen solely on the basis of race. That was the Nazi argument, but science has since proven that their ideas regarding race were unscientific. Some anthropologists today feel that all discussion of 'race differences' are without scientific basis.
Jews cannot be totally separated from their religion, even if they are secular Jews. We are Jews because of a religion as well as being members of a tribe connected in one way another with the line of Abraham. They are inseparable elements of our identity. We are a people of a particular faith because we are defined by a religion, even if we claim to be non-religious.
...Lastly, in reference to the Bible Students who suffered along with us and others in the concentration camps, their choice was not based on solidarity with the Jews or even a disagreement with the Nazi state in particular but due to a hatred of all the world, all its governments, and due to a belief that all other religions are not of God. They neither saw us [Jews] as fellow servants of God then during the Shoah nor do they now.
To illustrate my point: A Witness fellow by the name of Larry Alford once told me, some twenty or so years ago, that the reason the Muslims now occupy the Temple Mount is a sign from God that we, the Jews, have been rejected by God. We rejected Jesus and killed him and thus as a whole we have been rejected as a people. The Islamic shrine is a way of God letting us Jews know that we are no longer God's covenant people. We are rejects. The Muslim dome is meant to be an insult from Heaven and constant reminder of this.
While those Bible Students who suffered in the Shoah were nevertheless courageous to take their stand, the pacifism may not be genuine. There seems to be an underlying hatred for non-Witnesses at the basis of it. It isn't even referred to as 'pacifism' by their own choice but instead as 'neutrality' to secular issues. The same religion teaches that God is destined to slaughter all non-Witnesses is the upcoming war of Armageddon. Looking forward to the slaughter of people in an upcoming war is not pacifism by any definition.
To insist that the Jews in the concentration camps were not a people of a faith is view of equal hatred, in my opinion. Were it not for the Jews, the Gentiles would not have their monotheistic religions they claim have superseded our own. Sadly I have grown old in a world that has still not halted Hitler's decision to define us by standards we did not invent."
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Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
One good point, if you can prove it even is that (and you haven't) doesn't make the Witnesses a good religion of any kind.
For the sake of argument, let’s say it is just a bunch of legends, that the Bible is just completely made up mythology.
Even as a bunch of false stories, you cannot convince me that the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their stuffy, self-righteous Governing Body compose the spiritual inheritors of the Holy Scriptures.
And what a mythology it is! Miracles, seas parting, mountains burning and shaking, the dead being brought back to life!
What does the Watchtower have? Some story about coal being delivered to one of the buildings in Brooklyn Heights, once seen as a miraculous sign from Jehovah on where to put the world headquarters, buildings now being sold off and abandoned? Another story on how anti-Semitic, oft drunken Judge Rutherford and his colleagues get released from jail in 1919? That’s it? Boy, those who make a movie of those miracles are sure going to have a time making those scenes come to life, right? Not!
What about the grand throngs of worship in the Temples? Herod’s Temple was one of the Seven Ancient Wonders of the World! You want me to believe that the inheritors of true worship are now blessed to be building on a plot of land that has been poisoned with toxic waste? Have you seen the size of those stones on the Western Wall? The “great building work of Jehovah’s Witnesses” is a wannabe by comparison!
And the marvelous culture and tradition of the people of the Bible, the many holy days and rituals associated with them: you’re telling me that JWs are the modern-day representation of this religion, the group that won’t celebrate even Arbor Day?
This group that shuns former members, even if they are blood relations, is not of the same cloth as those who recorded Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son, the one where the father watches each day for the return of his sinful child and, when the boy does return, embraces him with love even before he begs forgiveness. The JW religion claims this beautiful, heart-warming and rich mythology as their heritage?
They wish. They aren’t worth the spit of the people and culture these tales came from, even if they are just legends and myths.
Inferior? The JWs are an insult to this rich tradition, even if it’s just a mythology.
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Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?
by nicolaou inseems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.
maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.
many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.
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David_Jay
That's a classic example of what is known in forensics as a "red herring."
Slim: "Only a handful of other faiths [were] in the concentration camps."
So Jews are not a people of a certain faith?
Besides, the real issue is whether Jehovah's Witnesses are an inferior form of Christianity. Was being neutral to the persecution of the Nazis something God wanted the Witnesses to do? What about the JWs who did not end up in the camps? What about those free JWs who did nothing to stop them?
If being victims makes Jehovah's Witnesses a superior religion, then Jews are superior to JWs because five to six millions Jews perished in the Holocaust.
And forgetting that Jews are people of a certain faith and made up the majority of people in the camps just didn't sit right with me, so I mentioned it.