I am not sure how their theology works in all instances. My family is Jewish. I can ask how this "no universal dogma" thing works and get back with you. But when you're talking about a room full of various ideas and beliefs, I have been told by my brother, you're likely describing a room full of Jews.
David_Jay
JoinedPosts by David_Jay
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9
Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"
by David_Jay into date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.
both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.
especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.
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9
Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"
by David_Jay into date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.
both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.
especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.
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David_Jay
Fishermen,
Many the views you express are not the views of all the Orthodox Jews who have signed the document.
There are also no universal dogmas among the Jews, so the way doctrine is understood can differ drastically from Jew to Jew (which is why they enjoy debating among themselves so much in the yashiva system).
Most schools of thought among Jews do not formally recognize Satan the Devil at all, and this is true especially among the Orthodox. But you are correct that some Orthodox Jews have some views of the universe which are similar to Fundamentalist Christians, but the majority of Jews do not.
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41
Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?
by Brokeback Watchtower inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.
http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.
abstract.
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David_Jay
Cofty,
The repeated suggestion that certain views are connected to Watchtower beliefs are meant to be limited to those persons who are either not out of the Witness system yet or still breaking free.
I directly mention the Witnesses in some instances because I don't want those particular views I am referencing at the time to be mistaken as applying to others of different denominations or schools of thought who idependent of the JWs may have a similar conviction. I don't think I have come across anyone here who directly supports the Watchtower views yet, so I don't see how anyone who could think these apply to themselves who are either not associated with or never have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
But if you don't like the way I have put things, then I guess I have to either change things or make it a bit clearer the next time around.
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41
Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?
by Brokeback Watchtower inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.
http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.
abstract.
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David_Jay
Ihunt,
The reference I made was to a different school of thought than the other "death of God" philosophers.
While Rubenstein definitely came after Neitzche, I am certain you learned that neither invented the phrase. It is a very ancient view in Judaism that God has been absent after creation. An old axiom from Judaism, pre-dating the Enlightenment is that God doesn't exist unless we make it so: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."
The Jewish culture, having invented the God of Abraham, also introduced the first to reject his existence, especially when Gentiles didn't worship or know about him. Such views occurred in the Second Temple era, before Christ.
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9
Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"
by David_Jay into date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.
both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.
especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.
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David_Jay
To date, over 50 Jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing Jewish and Catholic relations which have proved successful since the Vatican released Nostre Aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.
In the first days of December of 2015, about 24 Orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on Christianity" released by the Israel's Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding and Cooperation, with the Vatican releasing its own document entitled "The Gifts and the Calling of God Are Irrevocable" just one week later. Both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from God.
While not totally new, especially since the papacy of St. Pope John Paul II, the Vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century. Especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous Scripture-study statement that the Church holds that the Jews are still the covenant people of God, that the covenant has never been revoked, and...
"In the past, the break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture."
The Jewish document states "that Christianity is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations." Unique because it is the stand of rabbis from the Orthodox branch of Judaism, the one with the previous unbending stand regarding Christianity that currently exists among Conservative, Reform and Post-denominational Judaism, the number of signing Orthodox rabbis continues to grow into 2016.
With the Catholic Church formally recognizing Israel in such a manner, putting a stop to all proselytizing of Jews as well as taking an active standing against antisemitism, the Jewish documents adds "we Jews can acknowledge the ongoing constructive validity of Christianity as our partner in world redemption, without any fear that this will be exploited for missionary purposes."
The view of the Catholic Church is, of course, a striking contrast from that of Jehovah's Witnesses who officially hold that God rejected his covenant people for rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, and that only a 144,000 Christians, with the Governing Body and other JW heavenly-claimants among them as the only human beings currently in a covenant relationship with the God of Abraham.
For more information, see:
http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/08/orthodox-rabbis-letter-calls-christianity-part-gods-plan/
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What Are We Now?
by David_Jay inhow do we rate after leaving the watchtower?
are we very different people after we have walked out our last meeting at the kingdom hall?
or are we essentially a "mad-lib" version of what we claim we once were, that we have merely "filled in the blanks" with our latest set of convictions and still think we have the truth, are right and others wrong, and feel we must promote our new "truth"?.
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David_Jay
How do we rate after leaving the Watchtower? Are we very different people after we have walked out our last meeting at the Kingdom Hall? Or are we essentially a "Mad-Lib" version of what we claim we once were, that we have merely "filled in the blanks" with our latest set of convictions and still think we have the truth, are right and others wrong, and feel we must promote our new "truth"?
While admittedly it is far easier to remove the man from the Watchtower than the Watchtower from the man, often we might not notice where some stray things have carried over. Here are a list of questions I have asked myself from time to time to test myself and see where I need to improve. Add some of your own that have helped you, or see how well you are doing compared to the list that grows from here.
1. Does my use of critical thinking come from learning the concept in a situation that can validate I really know it and use it correctly (i.e., college, other similar learning outlet) or is it mostly from things I read on the Internet, magazines, TV, etc.?
2. Does my rejection (or acceptance) of religion come from learning what various theologies really think and accept, or am I coming to conclusions based on my limited Watchtower experience, my emotions, or a combination thereof?
3. Have I set fail-safes in my life to keep me from deluding myself? What are they? How are they ensured to be reliable?
4. Am I always finding myself in the center of conflict? Why? Do smart people really spend time being in conflict and arguing about what they believe and think is true? Is it healthy? Do I achieve, accomplish, and perform more than argue? Do I achieve, accomplish, and perform in line with and better than my arguments?
5. Do I remember that I, myself, once thought I had the inarguable truth as one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Do I still fall into this trap? Do I always remember that I don't have a good track record when it comes to being right because of this?
6. Do I accept or reject things more on emotion or more on logic? How do I verify my answer to this question?
7. Do I still have an "us-against-them" mentality?
8. Do I make the mistake of the "fallacy fallacy" when I do have to argue a point?
9. Am I always right? Don't I allow myself to be wrong?
10. Have I come to stop caring about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe?
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33
whats so bad about believing people go to heaven?
by sowhatnow init occurred to me today, that so often, my mother will make the comment that .
"those false religions teach that everyone is going to heaven when they die, oh sure, .
all you have to do is be a good person, and off you go to heaven.
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David_Jay
I believe our thinking has become a little bit two-dimensional here. The OP was not asking what is wrong with the eschatological concept in general, but why do JWs criticize others who entertain it.
Life after death is not a universal relgious belief. Many Jews do not have it, even though the concept that God lives in Heaven is part of their theology. Jews don't expect life in Heaven at any point.
Buddhism strives to have no existence after death for its adherents, no afterlife at all.
The belief in Heaven as a paradise reward for the good is far from universal, as is the concept of punishment in some sort of underworld for the evil. One cannot therefore come to a universal conclusion regarding how such concepts effect people in general since there is no universal acceptance or understanding of them among relgious adherents.
In other words we can't positively verify our opinions that belief in Heaven is bad for people becuase not everyone who is relgious believes the same thing about Heaven. To arrive at a definitive conclusion one way or the other would demand a universal concept and acceptance, and that doesn't exist. Again Jews believe in Heaven, but they don't believe they are going there. How is their belief in Heaven a good or bad thing?
The question was why do JWs criticize others who share a similar belief? If the belief is similar, the conclusion is not that Witnesses criticize the theology. It is that the JWs don't like the people with the similar conviction.
The issue is more serious than whether eschatological concepts are good or bad for people. The issue is that blind hatred for people is making the JW criticize what amounts to "fellow believers" in similar theology. One would normally feel solidarity with someone who holds familiar convictions and views. The oddity here is that Witnesses will go out of their way not to entertain such solidarity.
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33
whats so bad about believing people go to heaven?
by sowhatnow init occurred to me today, that so often, my mother will make the comment that .
"those false religions teach that everyone is going to heaven when they die, oh sure, .
all you have to do is be a good person, and off you go to heaven.
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David_Jay
In Catholic theology "Heaven" is not a place one goes to after death. Transcending time and space, Catholicism teaches that God does not dwell in a place, per se. "Heaven," says Catholic eschatology, is the after death experience of being with God and enjoying this state of happiness, called the "Beatific Vision."
This experience transfers, apparently, to the Resurrection (the point in which present history stops). Souls "in Heaven" get united with their raised new physical bodies, and the just enjoy the "new heavens and new earth" which Catholicism teaches is the regeneration of the physical universe. At this point God will dwell with humanity much like, God did with Adam and Eve.
However Catholics are forbidden from living a life where the present world means nothing. Unlike JWs, Catholics do not believe that God's Kingdom is static. Their doctrine demands that they bring the kingdom into the world by working to heal it now. Failure to do so will keep a person from experiencing the Beatific Vision.
And Jews hold that this life may be all there is, that God has given them life now and that this is a good enough reason to put faith in and worship God. While not excluding a belief in "the world to come," their doctrine centers on bringing redemption to the world now. As one Jewish man put it: "We live in the world as if there is no God, being the only expression of God in the world and maybe the universe if need be."
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41
Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?
by Brokeback Watchtower inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.
http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.
abstract.
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David_Jay
OntheWayOut has a good point.
I also think in a few instances the reverse is true. Not all reject religion on the basis of pure logic. For a lot of us who were JWs rejection of God and relgious trappings was very connected with emotion.
So sometimes many of our initial arguments against relgious views aren't very different from the Watchtower. Most of us knew little more about other religions except what we learned from the JWs. And we often don't have it in us to stomach any relgious talk to give it enough attention to learn the real stuff accurately. That's the Watchtower's fault.
But as OntheWayOut stated: "Once a person breaks from the emotional part, intelligence came come in."
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41
Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?
by Brokeback Watchtower inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.
http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.
abstract.
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David_Jay
While I concur with the majority of views here, I do have to note what I've noticed so far on this forum.
While there is a definitely and totally understandable degree of anti-religious sentiment, the views of what religious people are like and what their convictions entail are not very accurate in not a few too little cases.
I am very on the side of atheism, freedom of speech, and the call to critical thinking. But, in my humble and possibly mistaken opinion (becuase it has only been a few weeks that I have been on here), to me I noticed that the understanding of some ex-JW atheists here seems limited to only Watchtower concepts and attitudes about "false religion."
The ideas that religion or theist concepts are wrong, make people "less smart," and similar views are highly reminiscent of the "we're right, they're wrong" attitude prevalent in the Watchtower theology.
While I think it is always, always a very good thing to put religion under the microscope and seek for logical explanations from the "believer," I was expecting to meet people here who adopted anti-religious views to be well-versed not on anti-religious propaganda but on accurate, college-educated views.
Remember, many in religion are university-educated people, and once we are outside the Watchtower there is little to no excuse to get ourselves formally educated. Most on this forum show what I would call an innate and natural intelligence that would only bloom further in a masterful way by applying themselves to learning about these things in the halls of higher education.
But a lot of these attacks or critiques on relgion show very little growth to at least be accurate about other faiths and move beyond Watchtower views. They were not accurate about what other religions believed. You cannot argue logically if your views and personal convictions are not accurate and verified. Anger with relgion does not automatically ensure a correct view.
In some instances it seems like that same compartmentalization technique we underwent in the Watchtower is still going on with some here (not all): the same old arguments have to be raised and discussed as if it is a lesson, and then everyone gets patted on the back for their rehashed answers, but only if they are agreeable with the mindset of the majority.
But looking for a flaw in the person with another conviction is not logical. Religion or belief in God don't make you dumb. Refusing to get a formal education and keeping that education going as you live is what makes you dumb.