Posts by David

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Re-read my posts.

I was stating we could use our educational histories, IQs, etc., to do a more precise study on the question being asked. Assuming everyone on here has something similar I thought people were genuinely interested in finding an analytical answer.

I wasn't saying my education or IQ prove I am not a "dumb theist." Apparently it doesn't matter what my education is or my WAIS scoring as none of this prevents people from calling me names or congratulating me. People will take the same data and arrive at conclusions they desire in the end.

I didn't publish anything that isn't on my public internet resumes or that can't be found on professional profiles about me around the Net.

If anyone is interest, I have a very low EQ, and I don't always deal well with people because I tend to be highly logical and extremely literal compared to others. My posts where in line with literally getting our information together to come up with a literal hypothetical model and arrive at an answer. To be very honest I am very confused by some of the responses, and my questions I write in response are real. I am asking becuase I don't know.

Therefore I leave this forum in the hands of those far better to explain things and deal with matters regarding JWs (see my education and IQ don't help me after all). Like the real world, I am better sitting back and listening even here.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

So the Jehovah's Witnesses are to be criticized because they discourage higher learning.

Those who believe in God are to be criticized for being dumb.

And someone who was merely pointing out that we can use our own credentials (becuase I assumed most of us here have them) to devise a more precise formula to answer this thread's question is an "arrogant narcissist"?

I'm educated, so what? Practically everyone on here talks like they are, so I assumed as much. Damned am I if I agree with the Watchtower on the pitfalls of higher education and damned if I get a higher education, huh?

We are hypocrites if we criticize the Governing Body for its views on higher education when we turn around and insult those who have that education. How can we claim we are enlightened and critical thinkers if we don't ensure that our critical thinking is proper? Forensics, my major by the way, is critical analysis.

I leave this forum therefore to you good people and the likes of DJS.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

Fisherman,

As you know tonite is Shabbat. Went to dinner at my brother's house, and the rabbi was there. I asked your question. This was his answer:

"What do you think, that Judaism is built on nothing but Rashi?"

(For those who aren't familiar with what Fisherman is asking, Solomon Ben Isaac, also known as Rashi, was a most famous and influential Jewish exegete.)

But, as the rabbi explained, Judaism is not a static relgion like some forms of Christianity. As the rabbi put it, "some Christians see God as in a snapshot or still picture taken from the Bible, but Jews see revelation from God as an ongoing process. What gets revealed in one age is not necessarily for another. The Scriptures are not what religion is supposed to be based upon. Religion from God produces Scripture. Understanding them is not static but changes as the Jewish people evolve."

Rashi is still important, it was impressed upon me, but "Moses he's not," I was reminded. "Things change. Religion changes. Get over it."

Straightforward answers aren't freely forthcoming from Jewish rabbis, but I am sure you know this. This is all I got.

Dinner was good, but they served Magen David. Oy vey!

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Of course I assume everyone here is college-educated with a degree and knows their IQ score and the name of their test they took?

I went to Rice, then studied at Florida State, and continued at Columbia (UTS) with a BA in Forensic Science and in Liturgy. On the WAIS-IV I scored at 132.

I believe in God. If believing in God makes you dumb then wouldn't it follow that all atheists here have even higher scores, better sheepskins, and far more successful careers and much higher salaries than me?

Where did you go to college, atheist or theist? What degrees do you have? Which IQ text did you take and what was your score? What do your answers say not only in regard to the original question but to the various answers here given? I think that would be a better gauge than anything else.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

I am not sure how their theology works in all instances. My family is Jewish. I can ask how this "no universal dogma" thing works and get back with you. But when you're talking about a room full of various ideas and beliefs, I have been told by my brother, you're likely describing a room full of Jews.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

Fishermen,

Many the views you express are not the views of all the Orthodox Jews who have signed the document.

There are also no universal dogmas among the Jews, so the way doctrine is understood can differ drastically from Jew to Jew (which is why they enjoy debating among themselves so much in the yashiva system).

Most schools of thought among Jews do not formally recognize Satan the Devil at all, and this is true especially among the Orthodox. But you are correct that some Orthodox Jews have some views of the universe which are similar to Fundamentalist Christians, but the majority of Jews do not.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Cofty,

The repeated suggestion that certain views are connected to Watchtower beliefs are meant to be limited to those persons who are either not out of the Witness system yet or still breaking free.

I directly mention the Witnesses in some instances because I don't want those particular views I am referencing at the time to be mistaken as applying to others of different denominations or schools of thought who idependent of the JWs may have a similar conviction. I don't think I have come across anyone here who directly supports the Watchtower views yet, so I don't see how anyone who could think these apply to themselves who are either not associated with or never have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

But if you don't like the way I have put things, then I guess I have to either change things or make it a bit clearer the next time around.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Ihunt,

The reference I made was to a different school of thought than the other "death of God" philosophers.

While Rubenstein definitely came after Neitzche, I am certain you learned that neither invented the phrase. It is a very ancient view in Judaism that God has been absent after creation. An old axiom from Judaism, pre-dating the Enlightenment is that God doesn't exist unless we make it so: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."

The Jewish culture, having invented the God of Abraham, also introduced the first to reject his existence, especially when Gentiles didn't worship or know about him. Such views occurred in the Second Temple era, before Christ.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

To date, over 50 Jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing Jewish and Catholic relations which have proved successful since the Vatican released Nostre Aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.

In the first days of December of 2015, about 24 Orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on Christianity" released by the Israel's Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding and Cooperation, with the Vatican releasing its own document entitled "The Gifts and the Calling of God Are Irrevocable" just one week later. Both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from God.

While not totally new, especially since the papacy of St. Pope John Paul II, the Vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century. Especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous Scripture-study statement that the Church holds that the Jews are still the covenant people of God, that the covenant has never been revoked, and...

"In the past, the break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture."

The Jewish document states "that Christianity is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations." Unique because it is the stand of rabbis from the Orthodox branch of Judaism, the one with the previous unbending stand regarding Christianity that currently exists among Conservative, Reform and Post-denominational Judaism, the number of signing Orthodox rabbis continues to grow into 2016.

With the Catholic Church formally recognizing Israel in such a manner, putting a stop to all proselytizing of Jews as well as taking an active standing against antisemitism, the Jewish documents adds "we Jews can acknowledge the ongoing constructive validity of Christianity as our partner in world redemption, without any fear that this will be exploited for missionary purposes."

The view of the Catholic Church is, of course, a striking contrast from that of Jehovah's Witnesses who officially hold that God rejected his covenant people for rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, and that only a 144,000 Christians, with the Governing Body and other JW heavenly-claimants among them as the only human beings currently in a covenant relationship with the God of Abraham.

For more information, see:

http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2015/new-vatican-document-reflects-on-relations-between-catholics-jews.cfm

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/08/orthodox-rabbis-letter-calls-christianity-part-gods-plan/

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

4

What Are We Now?

by David_Jay in

how do we rate after leaving the watchtower?

are we very different people after we have walked out our last meeting at the kingdom hall?

or are we essentially a "mad-lib" version of what we claim we once were, that we have merely "filled in the blanks" with our latest set of convictions and still think we have the truth, are right and others wrong, and feel we must promote our new "truth"?.

David_Jay

How do we rate after leaving the Watchtower? Are we very different people after we have walked out our last meeting at the Kingdom Hall? Or are we essentially a "Mad-Lib" version of what we claim we once were, that we have merely "filled in the blanks" with our latest set of convictions and still think we have the truth, are right and others wrong, and feel we must promote our new "truth"?

While admittedly it is far easier to remove the man from the Watchtower than the Watchtower from the man, often we might not notice where some stray things have carried over. Here are a list of questions I have asked myself from time to time to test myself and see where I need to improve. Add some of your own that have helped you, or see how well you are doing compared to the list that grows from here.

1. Does my use of critical thinking come from learning the concept in a situation that can validate I really know it and use it correctly (i.e., college, other similar learning outlet) or is it mostly from things I read on the Internet, magazines, TV, etc.?

2. Does my rejection (or acceptance) of religion come from learning what various theologies really think and accept, or am I coming to conclusions based on my limited Watchtower experience, my emotions, or a combination thereof?

3. Have I set fail-safes in my life to keep me from deluding myself? What are they? How are they ensured to be reliable?

4. Am I always finding myself in the center of conflict? Why? Do smart people really spend time being in conflict and arguing about what they believe and think is true? Is it healthy? Do I achieve, accomplish, and perform more than argue? Do I achieve, accomplish, and perform in line with and better than my arguments?

5. Do I remember that I, myself, once thought I had the inarguable truth as one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Do I still fall into this trap? Do I always remember that I don't have a good track record when it comes to being right because of this?

6. Do I accept or reject things more on emotion or more on logic? How do I verify my answer to this question?

7. Do I still have an "us-against-them" mentality?

8. Do I make the mistake of the "fallacy fallacy" when I do have to argue a point?

9. Am I always right? Don't I allow myself to be wrong?

10. Have I come to stop caring about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe?

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay