Posts by David

70

When is a theory 'just a theory'?

by HB in

the titles of cofty's excellent recent posts are all preceeded by the words "evolution is a fact...".

richard dawkins is encouraging people to use the term 'fact' in relation to evolution, especially when debating with creationists as the word 'theory' is confusing to many, and the latter often takes the discussion off on an often unproductive tangent.

the following may be of interest, it's from the bbc website - part of a regular series of articles called 'the vocabularist', discussing the origin and meaning of words: .

David_Jay

For those who have a hard time accepting that analytical methods have a vocabulary that differs from the vernacular, let's compare the use of words from critical document analysis (as used in Biblical study) and note the differences between vernacular usage (marked with a "v") and the critical document usage (marked "d"). We already compared...

1. MYTH: v. False story. d. Origin narrative.

2. FABLE: v. Fictitious tale. d. An apalogue or short story with a moral.

3. LEGEND: v. A popularly believed story that cannot be verified. d. A moral derived from the character of a historical person, usually set in a novela or fictional setting.

4. NOVELA: v. Short fictional story or a serial "soap opera," popular in Latin television. d. A legend based on a historical person or event, set in a particular genre that works as a device to tell the story

5. APOCALYPTIC: v. Having to do with the end of the world or a destructive end in general. d. A narrative genre in which political critique or intrigue are disguised as symbolic oracles (prophecies) from a divine source.

This is the way methodologies work. They have a language all their own. Often methodologies are using terms in their original sense whereas vernacular speech takes them and gives them a secondary meaning, "apocalyptic" being a popular example.

Some may not like the fact that analytical methods use terminology in ways that differ from the vernacular, but this has been the way of speech for generations. Languages generally have a "formal" means of address and a more relaxed "common" speech.

70

When is a theory 'just a theory'?

by HB in

the titles of cofty's excellent recent posts are all preceeded by the words "evolution is a fact...".

richard dawkins is encouraging people to use the term 'fact' in relation to evolution, especially when debating with creationists as the word 'theory' is confusing to many, and the latter often takes the discussion off on an often unproductive tangent.

the following may be of interest, it's from the bbc website - part of a regular series of articles called 'the vocabularist', discussing the origin and meaning of words: .

David_Jay

Cofty is correct in calling evolution a "fact," because of the fact that it is a "scientific theory."

The terminology in analysis is merely different than our vernacular speech. In the scientific method when one establishes a "fact" they have what is called a "working theory," which means a validated observation. In everyday speech that is what we call a "fact."

Most of us are not scientists, and even the most analytical of among us speak in the vernacular. For instance, whereas "fact" in everyday speech is equal to "scientific theory," the everyday use of the word "theory" in science is "hypothesis."

Analytical methods use terms differently than they are employed in everyday speech. Similar to the use of the word "theory" and it's different meanings in science compared to the vernacular, critical Biblical analysis uses the word "myth" in a different way than used in everyday speaking. A critical "myth" is a story explaining how something came to be employing narrative devices, a story of origins. In everyday speech we use the word "myth" to mean a "false" report. But a critical myth is neither necessarily false nor fact, it's just a tale of the origins of this or that.

So when one speaks in the vernacular it is correct to call evidence a "fact." When speaking in scientific terms it is the "theory of evolution."

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

David_Jay

Mephis,

This is not new information to me. I learned it in elementary school during the 1970s. My parents, unlike the rest of my family, were Catholic, and details like this fine academic you mention are basic to Catholic Bibles in the footnotes.

It is also taught in the intermediate level of Hebrew School to children. We Jews know much of our religion and culture comes from the world which we sprang. Passover, for instance, is well-known in Jewish culture for being pre-Exodus.

The problem is that JWs teach a literal interpretation of the Scripture which does not match the understanding of Jews and those in Christendom. It may be "new" and "shattering" to exJWs, but it was the stuff of primary education for someone like me who went to religious private schools.

9

Article: "Why God Won't Go Away" (Contains an example of a JW) An excellent read!

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

http://committingsociology.com/2016/01/15/transcending-religious-ideas-is-easy-transcending-religious-thinking-is-hard/.

why god won’t go away.

january 15, 2016 john faithful hamer .

David_Jay

Nicolaou,

Not being "Joe Average" is often what makes a person move beyond the elementary positions of atheism vs. theism, feeling they need to speak up every time something is said about this subject or that.

I subscribe to principles of the transconvictional movment wherein arguing about or declaring life is all about what one believes regarding God or a lack thereof is not as important or irrelevant compare to merely living out what one is. So to some people it is "Joe Average" who sees discussing that old "this conviction vs that conviction" argument boring, a waste of time, immature.

I personally don't expect people to get along. I have every reason to expect people will always find a reason to nit pick others to death, be angry with others who have different convictions, want to destroy or at least hurt that which they are ignorant about, steal, murder, etc. People will only be convinced when they want to be and not when they are not willing to change their views. People love to argue and prove themselves right and another wrong even if they aren't.

That may be your cup of tea, but there will always be somebody out there who finds delight in making you feel insignificant for your views. I try never to give them that satisfaction, and never to be that person to another, and sometimes the only way to do that is skip the discussion altogether.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

Right, kaik, and this statement is not about the issue of who is Messiah, whether Messiah is a real person, whether it is this guy or that girl or any of that.

The statement even clearly spells out it is not about reconciling Judaism with Christianity either. It clearly states that that there are many views both sides may never be able to reconcile, ever.

The statement is about how many Orthodox Jews for the first time are declaring that Christianity is part of "tikkun olam" when previously it was viewed not of divine origin and thus an obstacle to that particular redemption.

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

David_Jay

Memphis,

I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

David_Jay

Fulltimstudent,

I've run into this more than several times on this site, and while it surprises me that some people are not aware of this, but just becuase I report something does not mean i condone it, approve of it, agree with it, believe it, or have any emotional investment I it. I am not the type of person to only speak up on those subjects that benefit me or side with my views or convictions.

Therefore I am not the one who can answer your questions. I think you should direct them to those rabbis who signed (and are still signing this agreement). You may also wish to consult with theologians connected with the Holy See, likely beginning on the diocesan level with the Catholic pastoral office in your area. You should ask for the office of the Chancellor. You can also contact the local Orthodox rabbis in your area.

Beyond finding this very interesting in the history of Jewish-Christian relations, I am merely a watcher from the sidelines. I have no personal views or opinions regarding any of the parties involved.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

David_Jay

No, James. Judaism is not accepting Jesus as Messiah.

Some forms of Judaism do not even believe the Messiah is going to be a person. Reform Judaism, for example, believes the Messiah was a personification of a time when humanity will be bringing its own redemption, for example.

This statement is merely stating that many Orthodox Jews now see Christianity as a valid and inspired form of worshipping the God of Abraham. The statement is in response to a series of official statements from the Catholic Church which has stated that God's covenant is still in effect with Israel, is irrevocable, and that the separation between Church and synagogue is both unscriptural and should never have occurred.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

David_Jay

In the last paragraph I meant to write:

...As such their religion is valid. Do they need to accept Jesus as Messiah? Christians do not and cannot know God's mind on these matters....

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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?

David_Jay

After World War II when the Axis powers fell, and the Jews returned to their homeland with the birth of the new republic of Israel, Christendom (here using the expression as JWs use it for clarity to us who were once JWs) took a reflective step back. After the recapturing of Jerusalem and the Temple mound in the Six-Day War in the 1960s, this reflective step back became a move to reinterpret Christianity's relationship to Judaism, especially that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Prior to the Holocaust, Christendom, including Catholicism, taught that the Jews were rejected by God since they rejected Jesus as Messiah. But when virtually without any army and no nation the Jews survived the Holocaust while the giant war machines of the Axis nations did not, Christian theologians wondered if witnessing the Jews' return to Israel was not indeed prophecy being fulfilled.

After the Six-Day War the Holy See officially recognized Israel as a sovereign nation, and the Church began to alter its theology on Jews. God was obviously still caring for these people and, unfortunately, the Church recognized it had played a major part in attempting to destroy them and their culture.

In response the Church and mainstream Protestantism has stopped claiming that the Jews have been rejected by God. As such their religion is valid. Christians do not and cannot know God's mind on these matters, or so they say, and thus in the face of how the history of the Jews has turned out after the Holocaust it became apparent that the proselytizing of the Jews and praying for their conversion to Christianity was not in line with what was being experienced via providence. Thus it was halted beginning in the last half of the 20th century.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay