If you read my comments you would have seen that I said several times that I am Jewish.
You last comments prove you never read a thing I wrote.
David_Jay
JoinedPosts by David_Jay
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
I did. I ADDED more information. You have to counter the ADDED information to prove your point.
You have to quote from sources that do not come from your religion like I did. I am Jewish. I used non-Jewish sources to prove my objectivity. You have to do the same.
Can you say with all honesty before Jehovah that you read every part of my last argument and researched every point and proved each point I raised as wrong, demonstrating to all here how I was incorrect? That is what you need to do.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
Again, how does what you just said disprove the points I raised. Goo back, read what I wrote, and see how what I raised makes what you just quoted from the Watchtower impossible.
And you cannot prove your point by merely quoting things that support your view, you only prove your point when you DISPROVE the other arguments. Until you do that, you prove nothing. You lose.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
A Believer,
Always put what you believe to the test. Approach your convictions as questionable unless you can verify your convictions, each of them, with disinterested parties. If others demonstrate that your conclusions don't work, then abandon them for those that do.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
BoC,
And your statement helps, how? A Believer can't be helped to learn how to check what he's taught if people are making fun of things as he does. Checking conclusions with disinterested parties is the basis of critical thinking. A Believer needs to be taught how to do this. Making fun of things right now can be a distraction.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
It would help, Believer, if you state where your references come from. It also helps to do like I am, to use references that don't come from your own religion to support your argument. This shows you are being objective.
Check Strong and Thayer for the actual basis of the word NAOS. They show that my statement is correct, that NAOS comes from the verb which means "dwell." This shows that NAOS means "divine dwelling," and can mean any shrine, temple, or building in which a deity is believed to be supernaturally present. They also support this.
First-century Greek is known to many Jews because the Septuagint is written in this language. You can use outside sources from authorities to back up my claims about the words and see from language authorities that I am not making things up.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
See? NAOS doesn't refer to the courtyards. It refers to the actual sanctuary, the "inner chamber," the Temple itself.
It comes from the Greek NAIO which means "dwell." That is why even the NWT refers to it as "temple" in John 2 but "shrine" in Acts 19 in reference to Artemis.
NAOS is only the Temple proper. The courtyard still exist today and parts of the Western Wall, but the NAOS is gone. The Temple is the building that no longer stands on the foundation mound in Jerusalem.
Thus the great crowd cannot be in the courtyard.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
A Believer,
Length of time of your studying can't prevent you from having answers. In the book of Job it is the youngest man with the least experience who proves all the older false friends of Job wrong.
Therefore if you are following Scripture your amount of time studying these things is not an answer in line with Scripture. If you can't reply to the arguments presented that means you have not studied all sides. And if you haven't studied all sides to a belief then you can't say one is true and another false.
You can't believe and preach that you have the truth when you can't prove it. Even Moses was given proof of miracles to show he had God's favor. You must show some evidence you are right by disproving every argument, step by step, or by not being able to do so you prove you don't really have sufficient evidence to prove your views.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
Prove my arguments are false, A Believer, one by one, or bring reproach on Jehovah. For if you are truly of God, you will have the spirit of God and be able to show up that which is false.
But if you cannot prove that what I am saying is false, then you do not have God's spirit. And if you don't have God's spirit, you cannot be telling the truth.
In fact you should have the answers immediately. As a Jew who is not a member of your religion and doesn't hold a view of Jesus that you do, surely I cannot have more knowledge than a servant of the true God!
But if you cannot do so right here and now, you are no servant of God as you claim.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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David_Jay
A Believer is very wrong about the word NAOS. As a Jew who not only speaks Hebrew, I also speak and read the Greek of the Second Temple period.
The Koine Greek word NAOS means "divine habitation," or "god-house," and not Temple. It is the same word used at Acts 19:24 where the text speaks of the "shrines of Artemis." Depending on the religion the NAOS is speaking of, the word is speaking of the literal sanctuary or room in which a divinty or their presence was said to inhabit. That is why when it is used of YHVH the word means "Temple," but when used of Artemis the word is "shrine."
Luke 23:45 is a prime example of the meaning underlying NAOS when it speaks of the "veil of the NAOS" or Temple being torn. Herod's Temple structures and courtyards actually had many curtains or veils that were used as doors or dividers. Here the expression refers to the veil or curtain "of the NAOS." The inner most chambers of the Temple proper is being discussed here.
The word NAOS comes from the Greek verb, NAIO which means "to dwell." Due to this both Strong's and Thayers agree that the word NAOS means only the proper which houses the Holy and Holy of Holies.
While the individuals speaking with Jesus at John 2:20 state that the Temple had been under construction for 46 years, and it is clear that they are including the construction of the courtyards under the word NAOS, the same Jews are not calling the courtyards NAOS.
To illustrate, when the NAOS fell in 70 CE, much of Herod's other structures like the gates and walls and courtyards remained. But once the main structure fell, the NAOS, the courtyards and remaining walls were no longer called NAOS. Today we still have some of Herod's work, notably the Western Wall, and yet nobody says that since this and other parts of Herod's courtyards still remain that the NAOS is still there. Everyone agrees that the NAOS is gone. Take away the NAOS and the courtyards lose their meaning. The remaining Western Wall is even called the "Wailing Wall" now to demonstrate how we Jews mourn the passing of our NAOS. The space and foundations and much of the stones of Herod's work are still there, meaning the courtyards aren't gone, but the NAOS is.
Revelation 7:15 states that the those of the great crowd "render sacred service day and night in his NAOS." The only place "sacred service" was carried out was by priests serving at the sacrificial altar before the NAOS. The same priests had entry into the Holy and served before the Holy of Holies.
Those in the outer courtyards did not render sacred service. Men who were not priests could go as far as the courtyard where the sacrificial altar was but had no entry into the NAOS as the priests did.
Jewish women had a courtyard further out, and outside of this was a court for the Gentiles. No sacred service could be carried out by those in the outer courtyards, and only priests with entry into the NAOS could render sacred service of any type.
The theology of the Watchtower is that only the anointed can be said to have access to the Holy. It was decorated with cherubim and overlayed with gold, signifying a participation in heavenly life. Thus if the "great crowd" is said to be rendering "sacred service" in the NAOS, it means they have a heavenly calling.
As for the literal sanctuary, the Temple proper, the NAOS, it was originally built quite hastily over the period of a year and a half because the Jews were not quite comfortable with Herod tearing down the one they already had. Once it was done, the rest of the work went at a normal pace, and it would take about 80 years to finish the courtyard structures. Why? Because these structures were not the actual NAOS, and there was no need for haste. People often referred to the entire complex as NAOS, as in the conversation in John 2, but they stopped once the actual NAOS fell in 70.
The fact that "sacred service" is limited to the priestly class who could enter the actual Temple proper or NAOS further demonstrates that this cannot refer to courtyards where others stood. No sacred service could be carried out in them and people restricted to the courtyards could never enter the NAOS.
A Believer, you are mistaken.