Posts by David

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

Jewish theology tends to view demons as harmful physiological forces in the human mind over the Christian view that there are evil entities floating about jumping into people and controlling them.

However, Roland Doe, the boy at the center of the famous 1940s case that inspired the novel and film "The Exorcist" was not religious per se. His family was nominative Lutheran, and as far as I remember about the case were not practicing.

While it is quite possibly a case involving severe psychological issues, the boy's problems did begin after his aunt, who was a spiritualist, introduced Roland to seances. The boy, fascinated by what looked like play, began imitating rituals practiced by his aunt when alone. The aunt supplied Roland with a talking board for this very purpose.

Again this may not have been the cause of the alleged possession, but the family was not religious at the time of the so-called events, nor where they Roman Catholics even though the case was passed on to the Catholic Church after the parents sought help from the Lutheran Church.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

Catholics have a saying that counters the above:

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”--Saint Thomas Aquinas.

My favorite saying, however, is the one given to the fictional character Edina Monsoon in the British comedy, Absolutely Fabulous. Upon dying, Edina, who is a PR (Public Relations) agent goes to Heaven and meets with God, to ask her: "Who does your PR?"

To which God replies: "No one. Real things don't need PR."

28

A problem for believers

by Bugbear in

a problem for believers!.

a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

David_Jay

@Bugbear,

Jewish theology teaches that all peoples and cultures have been set in place by the great "Cause" of the universe. Our cosmology in the Tanakh was written in very ancient mythological narratives, using language that is a "snapshot" of the ancient past. Today Jews reinterpret this "God gave us this land" as meaning that our culture plays the part every other one does in the fabric of society.

This is not to say we don't have our literalists. Unfortunately, the current state of Israel is under the control of a party that believes in Biblical literalism, and this is causing all the great problems we are currently experiencing in Israel today. While Zionism itself has been secular since its inception, not to mention that Judaism has traditionally seen the Biblical texts as allegorical or religious takes on history, since the end of the Shoah and the Return, and more specifically the outcome of the Six-Day War, some Orthodox rabbis have been adopting a political hermeneutic that mirrors Christian Fundamentalism.

Since the God "concept" in Judaism stands for the Great Cause of the universe, whether that be the laws which govern the cosmos or the inescapable march of time (or even something closer to the Christian explanation of God--which most Jews would claim "unlikely" if not heretical), each people, ethnic group, family, and person is seen to fit the purpose for which the Great Cause has caused it into being. The land of Israel is no more or less the land of those who claim it than history will eventually show it as being.

28

A problem for believers

by Bugbear in

a problem for believers!.

a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

David_Jay

You may be describing religion based on your experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. Not all religions believe they have a special, unique, and/or exclusive on truth or even c!aim to worship a deity.

Jehovah's Witnesses have taught us many untruths about religion which upon leaving the Watchtower we might forget to dismiss with the other doctrines of the Governing Body. For instance, claims made by the Witnesses that the Roman Catholic Church says it's interpretation of things is the only one is false. Especially since Vatican II and even as recent as 2015 the Holy See has taught that revelation from God is not exclusive to either the Catholic Church or Christianity in general.

Also in 2015 Orthodox rabbis from around the world formally stated that Jesus is part of God's plan to unite people of different religious views and cultures to find common ground in working for the betterment of humanity.

In 1999 Catholics and Protestants of the Lutheran traditions ended their debate regarding the issues raised by Martin Luther in the Reformation, with Pope Francis just this year recognizing Luther as part of God's plan to bring about unity in Christianity.

Some religions like Buddhism and Taoism are godless. And the religion of my people, Judaism, does not teach that people must worship the God of Abraham or even believe God exists in order to be moral and have a blessed life now and even in the world to come. That's right, theism and religion are not necessary to enter the future Jews hope for.

While I definitely do not advocate religion as the panacea or requisite for humanity, one can still have an accurate view of religion while rejecting it. But to do so, one must step away from the prejudices and bigotry the Watchtower programs into people about religion.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

The reason I begin a lot of comments regarding Christian subjects that way is that some participants skim posts and, if they see you are writing about Jesus immediately think you're a Christian apologist. This has happened so many times to me, I now have to begin each subject that talks about something Christian this way.

Oddly, it sometimes doesn't work and someone will start calling me an apologist and telling me how my belief in Jesus is nonsense and how I need to go back to the Kingdom Hall or Catholic Church, etc. So it appears I cannot say it enough for some.

To find out if you might have some Jewish connection, you merely need to research your heritage. You cannot tell merely by name (not always), and the DNA tests offered to the public are not specific enough to help uncover such with accuracy.

However you might have an exclusively Jewish name and not realize it too. My friend Aaron Hernandez (not the sports figure) didn't know he was of Jewish heritage even though the name Hernandez is a Sephardic Jewish name developed during the Spanish Inquisition. Because the Inquisition scattered people with the name to Mexico, Cuba, Italy, etc., some people never make the connection.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

No, I mean, you're seriously asking? You've been in deep debate with me before where I mentioned this repeatedly, so I am wondering what your question means. I didn't think you were being unfriendly.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

Slimboy,

Are you being sarcastic?

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

I wish I knew more than what I offered, deegee. I don't think I could get those answers even from the exorcist however, though I am certain there is always work to attempt to ensure that natural conditions are not mistaken for something else.

I do know that those in the Catholic Church who deal with such things are themselves not afraid to say "we don't know." This I think can be very healing to hear for many of us who were once JWs.

Even after leaving the Watchtower we may spend years trying to find our own truth, but in so doing we might demand "truth" in a form that lives up to standards demanded by Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of these are unrealistic, even unreasonable.

Jehovah's Witnesses insultingly draw definitive parameters around concepts which are supposed to be spiritual and, as a consequence, transcendent. While religion for most is supposed to be a letting go to the great mysteries of life and embracing the mystery of it, Jehovah's Witnesses have reduced religion to a scholastic exercise teaching that something is not worth believing if one cannot explain it.

God, for instance, is for the most part completely "knowable" for Jehovah's Witnesses, with rules made up for God: God cannot be a Trinity, God has to have only one true religion on earth, God will only answer prayers if they contain an utterance of God's name, etc. The most mysterious things are reduced to puppets that more or less always act within rules as expected.

So a healthy asking for answers to such questions may be on the minds of everyone, non-JW as well as JW, but the acknowledgement that such details cannot always reasonably be expected in many cases might be telling of where else the Watchtower still remains in us and may have to be uprooted.

I guess this where an actual leap of faith comes in, not the type taught in Watchtower Land either. There comes a point where even doctors and priests must admit they don't know and just have to do their jobs. Sometimes it means the priest must turn away the "possessed" subject to doctors, and sometimes the doctor must turn away the patient to a priest. We are talking not hypotheticals but of desperate situations where lives hang in the balance. Sometimes you have to take a step into something you neither believe in or understand to save a life.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

The only source I can cite with any alleged experience in these matters from a Christian perspective is the Roman Catholic Church.

Before I continue, I want to reiterate that I am a Jew. Jews are not in the business of making converts, proselytizing, or actively adding members to our religion. I am also not advocating religion as a panacea or claiming that Jews hold the Roman Catholic Church as the authority in spiritual matters. This is only to add some educational data that might be useful in answering the question posed. No intention is made to suggest that the following information is the "ultimate truth" in the matter.

While Judaism has some demonology in its theology, it is neither universal to Jewish religion nor embraced by every Jew. However some of the basic theological principles did transfer to Catholicism.

According to Catholic teaching (and insight I was given by a priest who served in the past as an exorcist), the Catholic view is that actual possession (an extraordinary and rare situation in that religion's views) is always invited. It never, ever happens to someone who is not in one manner or another dabbling in some activity in which interest or desire invites contact.

The contact can begin quite innocently through curiosity, and the very few "genuine" cases on record seem to have that as an earmark. But, interestingly enough, the Church makes claim to so few cases of genuine demonic possession that it is almost non-existent. This does not mean exorcisms do not occur, as quite many indeed do today, but that rite is not merely the ritual expelling of a demon that has possessed a person, but more often a demon that is harassing a person. The blessing of an object for a holy purpose or to protect it from evil is also an exorcism.

The rite to expell a demon possession is not performed until all scientific explanations and medical procedures have been exhausted. Occasionally the rite may be performed on a mentally ill subject who merely believes they are possessed when medical professionals believe it can help the same. But subjects who claim possession are medical subjects first and a!ways until such a time as no explanation is left and signs are met that theologically fit the pattern of possession.

The Church does not release details about cases and more often than not hides the identities of the current exorcists in practice. Demonology suggests that demons recognize a hierarchy in Christianity, wherein lesser demons can be exercised by some denominations but others require longer standing (older) churches or denominations. This seems to be the unspoken rule recognized by the churches as well for when some churches fail in a possession case, regardless of the formal views they may have about the Holy See, the Catholic Church is always contacted for the most severe cases. Apparently, as demonology suggests, some demons will only be exercised by the oldest Christian authority.

17

Question on the sun created in the fourth day

by opusdei1972 in

in the first day elohim created light, and it was day and night in the first day.

then in the fourth day he created the sun, the moon and the stars.

of course, it did not actually happen, but what did the writer have in mind?.

David_Jay

@opusdei1972,

I do see what you are saying. I believe greatly that the literalist approach causes more than a little confusion with texts. I think it even applies to Christian texts too, such as the one you mention in 1 John.

If memory serves me, the author was not saying that all people who don't believe in Jesus are liars. He was specifically speaking of the Christian Gnostics who were denying that Jesus was the Messiah of the Jews. Marcion of Sinope was one who was heavily influenced by their teachings, and he started a heresy that taught that the Jews worshipped a lesser god than Jesus.

It is these people who eventually influenced Marcion that the author was calling liars. Marcionism taught the Christian Gnostic doctrine that Jesus had come in the flesh but was not the Christ.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay