David_Jay

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Posts by David_Jay

• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  Unfortunately I only know what I wrote. I don't know any more specific details. Sorry.
• 
  33

  The Triune Polytheism; the 'Trinity'

  by the-Question in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the most ridiculous of all dogmas anywhere in the universe is the very foundation of churchianity.....thus, all their other claims are just blah, blah!.

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• 

  David_Jay

  I can say one thing about the Trinity: the Jehovah's Witnesses don't teach it right.

  The mistake they make is that the Trinity is a dogma to teach people that God is Three. In reality, the dogma was designed to fight heresy by proving that God is only One.

  Jews as you know don't believe in the Trinity. But when I left the Witnesses I was able to learn not only from my own personal research but from Judaism that Christianity is not teaching that God is Three, but that the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad) is not violated by its claims about Jesus.
  

  The fact that Christians claim Jesus to be an incarnation of the God of Abraham in the flesh was taken up by the Gnostic Christians and Marcionism to teach that Jesus was a superior deity, more loving and powerful than the God of the Hebrews. The claim from Marcion of Sinope was that Jesus was an incarnation of a deity, and different god, but not the deity or the Messiah of the Hebrews.--Compare 1 John 2:22.

  Eventually all the various heresies that sprung from Gnosticism and Marcionism got squelched when the Trinity doctrine was formalized. Instead of being a document that defines the Trinity in full detail, it is actually does the reverse. It is a formula of anathemas explaining what views of God are not valid.

  As the Church recognized that Jesus was God in Epiphany, they also claimed that God was also the Spirit that was guiding the Church through Providence. But unlike the claims of the heretics, there was still only One, single God. The persons may be separate in identity, but not in substance. Christians were claiming they were only worshipping and having contact with the same, one God, whether it be the God of the Hebrews (the Father), the Son (Jesus, the Incarnation of God) or the Holy Spirit (the Providence of God).

  The teaching of "one God in three Persons" is what the Trinity is about, not that God is three. The JW argument that claims Christendom is saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 is a misrepresentation. The teaching is that Jesus is the same God that appeared to the Patriarchs and so is the Holy Spirit.

  Of significance, Jews don't reject the Trinity on the grounds argued by Jehovah's Witnesses. The problem is that Jews cannot accept the teaching that the Immortal One can become mortal and experience death. Jews have less of a problem recognizing God come in various forms (for instance, the Shekinah is God, the Angel of the Burning Bush was in a sense God, and the Theophany on Mt. Sinai was God, as was the manifestation of God that Moses and the elders of Israel ate before while on the mountain at Exodus 24:9-11). And yet, at the same time, all of these things is God and none of these things is God. The JW claim that confusion makes the Trinity invalid obviously doesn't read what the Jewish Scriptures have to say about God that closely.

  Or you can validly take the view of nicolaou too (problem solved). But the whole, "THREE GODS" thing taught by the Witnesses is not correct. The Trinity Doctrine is designed to prevent that belief. Witnesses are just uneducated idiots who couldn't understand a creed even if they read it...Oh, wait. That is the case.
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  Jewish theology tends to view demons as harmful physiological forces in the human mind over the Christian view that there are evil entities floating about jumping into people and controlling them.

  However, Roland Doe, the boy at the center of the famous 1940s case that inspired the novel and film "The Exorcist" was not religious per se. His family was nominative Lutheran, and as far as I remember about the case were not practicing.

  While it is quite possibly a case involving severe psychological issues, the boy's problems did begin after his aunt, who was a spiritualist, introduced Roland to seances. The boy, fascinated by what looked like play, began imitating rituals practiced by his aunt when alone. The aunt supplied Roland with a talking board for this very purpose.

  Again this may not have been the cause of the alleged possession, but the family was not religious at the time of the so-called events, nor where they Roman Catholics even though the case was passed on to the Catholic Church after the parents sought help from the Lutheran Church.
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  Catholics have a saying that counters the above:

  “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”--Saint Thomas Aquinas.

  My favorite saying, however, is the one given to the fictional character Edina Monsoon in the British comedy, Absolutely Fabulous. Upon dying, Edina, who is a PR (Public Relations) agent goes to Heaven and meets with God, to ask her: "Who does your PR?"

  To which God replies: "No one. Real things don't need PR."
• 
  28

  A problem for believers

  by Bugbear in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a problem for believers!.

  a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

  they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

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• 

  David_Jay

  @Bugbear,

  Jewish theology teaches that all peoples and cultures have been set in place by the great "Cause" of the universe. Our cosmology in the Tanakh was written in very ancient mythological narratives, using language that is a "snapshot" of the ancient past. Today Jews reinterpret this "God gave us this land" as meaning that our culture plays the part every other one does in the fabric of society.

  This is not to say we don't have our literalists. Unfortunately, the current state of Israel is under the control of a party that believes in Biblical literalism, and this is causing all the great problems we are currently experiencing in Israel today. While Zionism itself has been secular since its inception, not to mention that Judaism has traditionally seen the Biblical texts as allegorical or religious takes on history, since the end of the Shoah and the Return, and more specifically the outcome of the Six-Day War, some Orthodox rabbis have been adopting a political hermeneutic that mirrors Christian Fundamentalism.

  Since the God "concept" in Judaism stands for the Great Cause of the universe, whether that be the laws which govern the cosmos or the inescapable march of time (or even something closer to the Christian explanation of God--which most Jews would claim "unlikely" if not heretical), each people, ethnic group, family, and person is seen to fit the purpose for which the Great Cause has caused it into being. The land of Israel is no more or less the land of those who claim it than history will eventually show it as being.
• 
  28

  A problem for believers

  by Bugbear in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a problem for believers!.

  a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

  they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  You may be describing religion based on your experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. Not all religions believe they have a special, unique, and/or exclusive on truth or even c!aim to worship a deity.

  Jehovah's Witnesses have taught us many untruths about religion which upon leaving the Watchtower we might forget to dismiss with the other doctrines of the Governing Body. For instance, claims made by the Witnesses that the Roman Catholic Church says it's interpretation of things is the only one is false. Especially since Vatican II and even as recent as 2015 the Holy See has taught that revelation from God is not exclusive to either the Catholic Church or Christianity in general.

  Also in 2015 Orthodox rabbis from around the world formally stated that Jesus is part of God's plan to unite people of different religious views and cultures to find common ground in working for the betterment of humanity.

  In 1999 Catholics and Protestants of the Lutheran traditions ended their debate regarding the issues raised by Martin Luther in the Reformation, with Pope Francis just this year recognizing Luther as part of God's plan to bring about unity in Christianity.

  Some religions like Buddhism and Taoism are godless. And the religion of my people, Judaism, does not teach that people must worship the God of Abraham or even believe God exists in order to be moral and have a blessed life now and even in the world to come. That's right, theism and religion are not necessary to enter the future Jews hope for.

  While I definitely do not advocate religion as the panacea or requisite for humanity, one can still have an accurate view of religion while rejecting it. But to do so, one must step away from the prejudices and bigotry the Watchtower programs into people about religion.
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  The reason I begin a lot of comments regarding Christian subjects that way is that some participants skim posts and, if they see you are writing about Jesus immediately think you're a Christian apologist. This has happened so many times to me, I now have to begin each subject that talks about something Christian this way.

  Oddly, it sometimes doesn't work and someone will start calling me an apologist and telling me how my belief in Jesus is nonsense and how I need to go back to the Kingdom Hall or Catholic Church, etc. So it appears I cannot say it enough for some.

  To find out if you might have some Jewish connection, you merely need to research your heritage. You cannot tell merely by name (not always), and the DNA tests offered to the public are not specific enough to help uncover such with accuracy.

  However you might have an exclusively Jewish name and not realize it too. My friend Aaron Hernandez (not the sports figure) didn't know he was of Jewish heritage even though the name Hernandez is a Sephardic Jewish name developed during the Spanish Inquisition. Because the Inquisition scattered people with the name to Mexico, Cuba, Italy, etc., some people never make the connection.
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  No, I mean, you're seriously asking? You've been in deep debate with me before where I mentioned this repeatedly, so I am wondering what your question means. I didn't think you were being unfriendly.
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  Slimboy,

  Are you being sarcastic?
• 
  37

  I will only believe in demons if...

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

  the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

  but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  I wish I knew more than what I offered, deegee. I don't think I could get those answers even from the exorcist however, though I am certain there is always work to attempt to ensure that natural conditions are not mistaken for something else.

  I do know that those in the Catholic Church who deal with such things are themselves not afraid to say "we don't know." This I think can be very healing to hear for many of us who were once JWs.

  Even after leaving the Watchtower we may spend years trying to find our own truth, but in so doing we might demand "truth" in a form that lives up to standards demanded by Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of these are unrealistic, even unreasonable.

  Jehovah's Witnesses insultingly draw definitive parameters around concepts which are supposed to be spiritual and, as a consequence, transcendent. While religion for most is supposed to be a letting go to the great mysteries of life and embracing the mystery of it, Jehovah's Witnesses have reduced religion to a scholastic exercise teaching that something is not worth believing if one cannot explain it.

  God, for instance, is for the most part completely "knowable" for Jehovah's Witnesses, with rules made up for God: God cannot be a Trinity, God has to have only one true religion on earth, God will only answer prayers if they contain an utterance of God's name, etc. The most mysterious things are reduced to puppets that more or less always act within rules as expected.

  So a healthy asking for answers to such questions may be on the minds of everyone, non-JW as well as JW, but the acknowledgement that such details cannot always reasonably be expected in many cases might be telling of where else the Watchtower still remains in us and may have to be uprooted.

  I guess this where an actual leap of faith comes in, not the type taught in Watchtower Land either. There comes a point where even doctors and priests must admit they don't know and just have to do their jobs. Sometimes it means the priest must turn away the "possessed" subject to doctors, and sometimes the doctor must turn away the patient to a priest. We are talking not hypotheticals but of desperate situations where lives hang in the balance. Sometimes you have to take a step into something you neither believe in or understand to save a life.