Posts by David

13

A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

by David_Jay in

jw
friends

as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

David_Jay

Thanks again to all for the replies and support.

@Smiddy and kpop: I may pop in from time to time to see how things are going. But I was a JW as a teenager back in the 1980s and I left way before many here came in. The version of JW religion I joined ended some time ago. Whatever it is that replaced it, I have no idea. I have no interest in catching up by going online to the JW's new website and reading their new materials. And it seems people here have a more of an issue with religion and theism in general, not in the specific doctrines of the Watchtower.

Since Jews don't believe in proselytizing, and hearing things about religion even if the details are just meant to be educational proved to be too much for some people, I feel I have little to offer. A few particular individuals had even made a sport of insulting me every chance they got and let me know via posts and messages. I know they were just projecting their pain from the Watchtower onto me, and therefore it wasn't really personal. So I knew there was little I could do but let people heal in their own way. I couldn't stay just to be their whipping boy. I need to keep living the best life after the Watchtower and letting that be my "testimony." But I so want even those people who were very bitter towards me to heal, even if it means removing myself from the picture. They deserve it. I really care about everyone who has suffered so horribly from the Watchtower experience.

@LoveUniHateExams: Yeah, I never really liked saying "speaking as a Jew." I actually cringe when I type that. I would have rather not have had to say anything, but it helped to reduce the tension most of the time.

The first day I started posting here people attacked me, called me vicious names, sent some horrible messages my way, and for what? All I did was point something out from the Bible. It turns out that some of the people I mentioned above to Smiddy and kpop are not only hurt, they think everyone who quotes the Bible is a Christian, a theist, or a JW supporter.

So bit by bit I tried to make it clear I was not these things. But a little bit of explanation was not enough in the end.

We all ate a lot of poison from the Watchtower. When you ingest something bad, you need to vomit. Sometimes you have to vomit for days. For some, hearing any comment that might suggest support in favor of religion can be nauseating. This is a place to let it all out. And as a Jew, even one not advocating their own personal convictions, just the fact that I needed to make that point apparent should have been a suggestion that what I was posting might not have been the right word for the right audience.

But for the most part all was a great experience here, and for some to remember and let me know they were thinking about me during this time was so touching I had to say thank you.

13

A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

by David_Jay in

jw
friends

as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

David_Jay

As most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the United States where I live where many of our Jewish Community Centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats. Around the world many Jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.

While I have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), I have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though I did post a few times too while I have been here).

It has been touching and very helpful when Muslims, Christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the Jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people. There have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know I am not alone.

Some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other Jews during this time. I want to thank you all, regardless of your personal convictions. After leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses it can be a confusing thing to stop and do something like this, demonstrating solidarity with Jews against this form of prejudice (something Jehovah’s Witnesses practically never do), but this has not stopped some of you from doing this right now. Regardless what spiritual path some of you have taken after you left the Watchtower, you have let me and others know you are standing with the world against this new rise of old hatefulness.

But especially do I want to thank those of you who are atheist, those of you who are also standing against this wave of prejudice against the Jewish people. Sadly, almost every experience I’ve had in which I was the subject of antisemtism came from a religious person. And while most Christians today are definitely also against this form of discrimination, my most recent experiences with this type of behavior has been mostly from Christians.

Some atheists on this board have let me know personally how much they are against what is happening. The same are usually very vocal about how they personally do not believe in theism or the Bible or religion. But some of the very same have been the ones to let me know they can put that aside to take their stand against such hate against the Jewish people and their communities. They have reached out and let me know they cared.

So while I am grateful to whoever you are, those of you who have stopped to locate me or send a message to let me know how you feel, I want to send a special note to those who are not theists but have done the same. To you especially I write: your wholehearted stand against this rise of hate in the world touches me, and I am most grateful to people like you. The world is a better place with you in it.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

Pale.emperor,

And that illustrates a marked difference between Jewish theism and Christian concepts of God. Christians expect there to be more than this life or that God has to prove his love for his creation by guaranteeing happiness and/or good health.

Some Jews don't accept the concept of life after death or that unhappiness disproves the possibility of God. Even those who do accept the concept of the World to Come do not focus their lives upon it. Judaism teaches to live focused on now and to worship God not because it will get you anything but because God has already brought you to life in this world.

In the end, it is okay to reject all forms of theism, even the Jewish concepts. It matters only to me that all people, including atheists, are allowed to hold their views with dignity and without constant threat and challenge from those who feel they must convert or judge them wrong.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

Deism is rejected by Judaism. As the Jewish Encyclopedia itself states at the end of its entry on the subject: "Judaism is theistic, not deistic."

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense.--Cofty.

Thanks for saying this.

This could be the problem. You might have made or have been handed a golden calf of sorts and been expecting it to be this great God that Christianity claims it is, and when it doesn't live up to the Christian claims you declare: "See, there is no God." But a golden calf, even if it be made out of the most precious stone, and even if you aren't the one who made it, is still an idol. It was never God to begin with.

I will not argue that you leave behind atheism for theism. As a Jew I find this a ridiculous demand and, to be honest, against my religion to think atheism is something bad. As long as you are a moral person and you do not worship false deities then you are perfect just as you are. In fact, by being an atheist and speaking about it to others you may be helping turn others from worshipping false gods. In Jewish theology you are neither required to be a Jew or a theist to have a place in the World to Come, you need only be just and moral.

The God of Abraham according to Jews is not something that can be fully grasped by the human mind, defined by religious doctrine, nor guaranteed by all the faith a man can muster. In fact, the word "God" was merely borrowed by the Jews to describe what they understand to be the Great Cause of the universe. Because people have come to accept that a deity is the highest being that must exist, then we use that word to describe the Great Cause. But in reality that are no such things as gods.

Our God is not a being that exists floating around somewhere in heaven, like the fairytale interpretations Gentiles have stuck to our ancient legends and traditional fables with moral lessons. Prophecies are not ambiguous phrases that can only by understood "in the light of Christ" and have to deal with the future of the Gentile world's history. And our God doesn't match the idealistic "all-loving" hippie picture Christians have painted him over with, making him out as if God is some kind of Santa Claus that you ask things of and, if you're good, you will get the toys you've requested on Christmas morning.

The Great Cause of the universe may even be less personal than Christans claim God is. This Great Cause may be the scientific mathematical center of laws that governs all to be as it is. Some Jews see this Cause as the universe itself and all its secrets yet to be tapped and discovered by science. Some see God as greater than all this yet, but whatever God is, Judaism has one thing it knows for sure about God: something that Great will defy understanding and demands of doctrine that humans can possess and invent. God may not even be as perfect as Christianity says God has to be.

Yet, our God gets blamed when the Christian golden calf fails to speak. When its prophecies don't become reality, our God gets blamed. When Christian interpretation get exposed as fraud it's is our Jewish Scriptures that get blamed.

I am glad Cofty made a purposeful differentiation between the Christian view of God in the very beginning. It is important to keep this in mind. Jewish monotheistic though has advanced, no...EVOLVED like everything else does in nature to become something far more advanced and logical than the static views of Christianity. So I thank Cofty for making this point clearly from the beginning.

We say the Bible is our history in allegory and mythology, Christians often say it's genuine history and use the writings of our prophets as a crystal ball that is supposed to be concerned with foretelling the future for Gentiles. We say it contains Jewish religious truths and they say it contains scientific facts. We say it contains lessons that must be adjusted to meet future needs and they say we must adjust our present lives to match its ancient, outdated demands.

So please continue to differentiate between Scripture and God and those who have sold you something different. That golden calf may be pretty, but don't blame our God for not being a giant floating gold bull in the sky. God is not what you've been taught, never was that thing, and never will be.

9

Christianity (Including JWs) Debunked

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

1 cor.

15: 21,22 rnwt: for since death came through a man,+ resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.+ 22 for just as in adam all are dying,+ so also in the christ all will be made alive.. .

so according to the nt jesus makes alive those that die in adam.. given the overwhelming evidence that adam as a man did not exist jws lose the battle on this verse.. however foolish christians like pentecostals and catholics like to call adam figurative.. okay... read it again^^^^^^... .

David_Jay

I am sure you heart is in the right place. But you arguments need a little sharpening up to work.

Being Jewish I neither believe that Jesus was the Messiah or in the concept of "original sin," and I totally accept evolution. However it sounds like you are confusing JW claims for what other religions actually teach as well as stuck reading the Pauline texts from the limited Watchtower perspective.

First off, both Catholicism and Pentecostals believe in the historicity of Adam. The only difference between the two faiths is that Catholicism sees the Genesis account as allegory while Pentecostals generally embrace a Fundamentalist interpretation, reading the Genesis account as literal. So that needs to be adjusted.

Next, the references in 1 Corinthians 15 to Adam introducing "death" into the world does not mean to other Christians what Jehovah's Witnesses claim it does.

The Jewish Annotated New Testament (which employs the NRSV text) has a very hearty footnote to these verses. Being that Paul was Jewish, the reference points out that unlike how the Watchtower interprets these verses, i.e., that Adam passed death to the rest of humanity via our DNA or something of that sort, Paul was likely employing the art of midrash to make a slightly different point.

Midrash is a Jewish form of hermeneutics that plays off the fact that the Hebrew tongue and its idioms are highly terse. Most other languages are not, but Hebrew very much is (meaning that one word can have a variety of subtle meanings). Here Paul seems to be quoting not Scripture but early rabbinical thought from the Second Temple era. Some Jewish sages and rabbis from this era taught that human "mortality" was introduced via Adam's envy, and that the Genesis account was an allegory claiming that humanity has wanted God out of the picture since the beginning (i.e., 'envying' God). The first personification or embodiment of this envy as the "Devil" in a religious text came shortly afterwards as found in Wisdom 2:24, an apocryphal Jewish writing (written around 100 BCE.)

While it is not clear if the text is calling Adam's envy "the Devil" (as Jews generally don't believe there is such a thing as a spirit enemy of God and humans) or if Wisdom is (for the first time in writing) introducing the Devil as a spirit being similar to Christian belief, Paul nevertheless does expand on this ambiguity via midrash in 1 Corinthians.

While Judaism does not teach that we die because we inherited death from Adam as a punishment, Paul via midrash took these elements to play off this illustriously. However, even Paul was not advancing the idea of Original Sin. That is a doctrine the Catholic Church would not introduce until much later. Paul's statement is related only to the Second Temple era theology (and it was not universal among Jews of the time either). The idea that all in Adam are dying as opposed to all in Christ being made alive is not literal, not in the first part anyway. He is merely using the illustration about Adam in arguing his point that resurrection is corporeal, not something that happens when someone dies and goes to heaven (the idea advanced by some that Paul is arguing against). By contrast Jehovah's Witnesses refer to a "heavenly resurrection" which is etymologically incorrect as the term "resurrection" refers only to the reanimation of physical, dead bodies.

All that aside, and as I do not subscribe to Christianity, I don't accept Paul's teaching even here. But what he is actually saying is far different than what you are describing (which seems to be the fault of the JWs never allowing you to learn outside their influence, not yours). Your conclusion has merit, but others outside the Watchtower will simply slice through the details in your argument for the reasons I pointed out. They need to be sound enough to stand up to mainstream theological academia. JW teaching does not.

A footnote: none of the Biblical genealogies are meant to be complete. All of them are based on outside sources, some oral and some written which no longer exist, from which only select names were taken in order to build a narrative in the context in which they occur. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible is the main source for these records, but the Bible was never the ultimate source for Jewish records, especially genealogical ones, since marriage and business contracts relied upon them. Copies of the Scriptures were never widely available even among the Jews until after the 17th century CE, so it would have been impractical to keep our records in the Bible. One therefore cannot base arguments for or against evolution on them (and remember, I accept the evolutionary model).

25

And then it hit me: we were abused

by Anders Andersen in

from a psychcentral (run by mental health professionals): a familiar item on a list of 7 types of parental abuse :.

spiritual abuse.

has the child experienced:dichotomous thinking – dividing people into two parts: those who agree with the parent and those who don’t.

David_Jay

Hey folks, I am being sincere that I may have made a mistake and written things in ways I shouldn't have. No one needs to apologize for anything they said either. Before my God I promise I hold nothing against anyone here.

I went from being abused all my life suddenly to the lifestyle of living as a JW at 16, going to meetings, no Christmas, going to assemblies, Saturday service, etc. That was not abuse for me, but one man's paradise can be another man's hell, huh? Sorry how it sounded. I know it must have been horribly abusive for many if not all of you who went through it.

A last thought: when someone said they were afraid for the people I worked with because of what I wrote, that did some damage. I understand, and I forgive you, but I am moving on. The damage from that one comment has to do with something...well, it is far beyond what I can explain now, and for reasons you couldn't have known it is damage that will be permanent if I don't leave now.

Hey, it happens, and it's okay. I've survived worse. It could happen again in the future that someone may say something in a thread that will just stab an old wound they don't know is there. On this forum I would be stupid if I thought it couldn't occur again. It will happen in other parts of my life too.

I can't stop all those situations from popping up. But I decided I won't stay and continue after tonight as exposing myself to that possibility in the future has to be minimized for my own good. I can minimize future pain and have to. You are still wonderful people, and I am sure and know in my heart that no one means to be malicious. Just sometimes two sick people will only make each other sicker unless one goes to their own sickbed. That is what I do now. Regardless all is still forgiven. We can only do what we can to keep exposure to the elements at a minimum and do what's best for each other's healing.

Good nignt. Shalom. My best wishes. And my most sincere thanks for all the help you have given me. You have been to me a most wonderful mitzvah.

25

And then it hit me: we were abused

by Anders Andersen in

from a psychcentral (run by mental health professionals): a familiar item on a list of 7 types of parental abuse :.

spiritual abuse.

has the child experienced:dichotomous thinking – dividing people into two parts: those who agree with the parent and those who don’t.

David_Jay

Thank you, nonJWspouse, but I think we need to move on now from me. What probably caused me to write my post without thinking is that I became a JW as teenager, leaving my parents behind for the life of meetings, field service etc. For me it was a relief. The abuse stopped (at least those things I mentioned as happening in my non-JW home before my Witness aunt took me in), and so I cannot say that living that life was anything but a relief. I came from a rich home, all the toys I could want, a nanny, dogs, we even celebrated all the holidays though we were Jews. I guess I knew no better as I was happy to go to meetings and field service and have no Christmas etc., anything but what I was rescued from. But I sincerely appreciate the adjustment. I need some time to move on for a bit, but I did want to thank you for that comment.

25

And then it hit me: we were abused

by Anders Andersen in

from a psychcentral (run by mental health professionals): a familiar item on a list of 7 types of parental abuse :.

spiritual abuse.

has the child experienced:dichotomous thinking – dividing people into two parts: those who agree with the parent and those who don’t.

David_Jay

No, I feel I shouldn't have said anything as I was merely comparing being raised as a Witness without beatings, etc and saying that alone was not abuse. But if others believe that such is abuse, even without such things then I am not going to deny that of them. Apparently how I wrote things show, as dubstepped wrote, that there is something that even the people I work with should fear of me. I will seriously take that into consideration.

I feel very bad now for participating and the mistake I've made. Please accept my apology. I will move on to other subjects now, but thanks again for the correction.

25

And then it hit me: we were abused

by Anders Andersen in

from a psychcentral (run by mental health professionals): a familiar item on a list of 7 types of parental abuse :.

spiritual abuse.

has the child experienced:dichotomous thinking – dividing people into two parts: those who agree with the parent and those who don’t.

David_Jay

And I would like to apologize to anyone else who found my post as an attempt to say that there are not other forms of abuse. I was only calling for some perspective on matters.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay