Posts by David

21

I need your opinions and recommendations please.

by bola in

after my exit from the watchtower shunning cult, i have received tons of invitations from different churches.

but because i am aware of religious cults, i need recommendations of churches that are not cults at all.

after exiting the watchtower cult, i don't want to fall into another religious cults.

David_Jay

Thanks, Anders.

I was kinda like this as a Witness, but was afraid to be this way fully till I left.

And while I must give some credit to what I learned from returning to Judaism, I have to say it has played more the part of a catalyst to be more myself than anything else.

Jews have become more egalitarian for the most part, but we're definitely not all there yet (the current conservative ruling party in Israel is a good example of Jews who can be as unfair and judgemental as the JWs).

But you can imagine how I didn't fit in as a JW as a lot of this never quite went away from me even in the deep, dark recesses of the Watchtower. (I feel I should add some maniacal laughter, like, "boo-ha-ha" after using the term "deep, dark recesses," like it's a requirement whenever those words are used together in a sentence.)

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Phizzy,

You are absolutely right. It would allow them to be practically identical to mainstream Christianity. Someone earlier on this thread started toward that argument from a JW perspective but it fell apart before even getting there.

As you are likely quite aware, the argument that I am presenting is not that there is anything wrong with the Passover having both pagan and human origins. Jews don't teach that. We acknowledge this truth and embrace our celebration wholeheartedly without excuse for how it began. There is no Devil that inspires pagans to worship him through false religion in Judaism, so adapting something from the Gentile world isn't necessarily wrong. Purim, for example, is celebrated using almost exclusively Gentile and pagan elements.

The idea that something has to be "sanctified" because it had origins in pagan society or because it came from a human tradition is a Christian way of dealing with the paradox they often create for themselves. Teaching that the world is under a curse due to Adam's sin and that the Devil is real and inspires paganism, they create a problem when they develop and engage in celebrations and observances that come from this "cursed world." They aren't breaking a real rule, but they are going contrary to their own when they do this.

The answer? You said it. "Jesus sanctifies!" Simple answer, no? They need to use Jesus as this type of answer because they tend to contradict themselves when they say "pagans are evil but we like their celebration elements that we adopt for ourselves." Thank God for the "Jesus-solution," then, huh? They reduce Jesus to a talisman almost by saying what is tantamount to "Jesus touched it so now it's good."

The reason that didn't even did start to work before here is that Jesus is not considered to be an answer to anything in my discussion. Remember, I'm Jewish. While I do believe and recognize that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish sage of the first century, I also recognize him as an imposter to messianic claims and dead...and probably long eaten away by worms. Whatever Jesus "touched" doesn't change the historical origins of anything.

Jews don't see the world as "cursed under sin due to Adam" or "under the control" of "the Devil." (As mentioned before we don't even believe in the Devil.) We see the world as innately good. Thus we have adapted practices from other cultures and attached new meanings to them, but we don't teach that such things were in some mire of evil that required Jesus to declare them "sanctified." And whatever new meanings we give these practices doesn't erase their origins.

21

I need your opinions and recommendations please.

by bola in

after my exit from the watchtower shunning cult, i have received tons of invitations from different churches.

but because i am aware of religious cults, i need recommendations of churches that are not cults at all.

after exiting the watchtower cult, i don't want to fall into another religious cults.

David_Jay

I'm a religious person, but I have to agree with those who say don't go down the path of jumping into another religion now, at least not yet.

If you ever make that decision to do so after leaving the Witnesses it should never be something that takes away your freedom of thought, your use of critical thinking and logic. It should be something that adds to your personal fulfillment, not get in the way.

But till then you need to heal from being in a cult. This means un-learning to think, reason, and accept everything you learned as a JW. This is not easy. One of the things you must accept is that having been a member of a cult, whether converted or born into it, you don't have a good record when it comes to choosing a religion wisely (none of us who were JWs can claim to shine in that area). So kind of hold off till you learn that you can avoid traps.

Religion may not even be for you. Take some time to just breathe. Armageddon isn't coming. You don't need to be saved because you're a sinner. You don't have to believe in God. It's okay to just be you.

If you do think religion might be for you, learn it critically. Study only with persons and groups that admit they are not perfect, that admit that they are not the only source of truth, that is egalitarian. Maybe you just need a spiritual practice or discipline like Buddhism. Or maybe you just need to follow your own heart and spirit.

If a more traditional religion does become your choice, try investigating those hated most by the Witnesses or the ones they said cannot be right. You don't have to join them, but it will help erase a lot of Watchtower thinking if you see the mainstream religions on their own terms, as they are, without a filter.

In the end, whatever you choose, let it be your choice. Choose a path that will be fine with you if you decide to change again or even completely abandon it without penalty. May it be something that contributes to your personal freedom, not take that away. And my it be a healing step in your life.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Hecce

I wrote my response to you in peace, not aggravation. It is merely your personal opinion (and only yours) that it was not part of an intelligent exchange.

In fact, a great calm came to me from writing my response to you. The more I responded, the calmer and more at peace I became.

6

Why is the memorial Sometimes not on the Night of the passover?

by NikL in

jw
friends

do the jaydubs follow a different calendar?.

sometimes it is not in line with the jewish celebration and it should be no?.

David_Jay

The Governing Body decided that it was only correct to consider the beginning of the lunar month of Nisan based upon when the new moon should be visible from the city of Jerusalem. Their reasoning is that this is the way Jews did it in the first century so it must stay this way.

Modern Jews have decided to begin their lunar months based on what science has contributed to humanity. So now official Jewish law states that months begin with the astronomical new moon (as weather conditions can make it difficult to decipher a visible new moon). This allows Jews anywhere on earth to know exactly when a month begins and remain united in counting time.

This can cause a difference of up to 30 hours between the Jehovah's Witnesses calculations and that of the Jews. Also the Governing Body is confused by the fact that a second Seder occurs on the 15th day of Nisan to mark the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Thinking this to be a practice of "some Jews" observing Passover on the day after the 14th, the Governing Body feels justified in this decision. They seem also to be confused in this due to the way some Jews in the Diaspora still "double" up on some holy day observances.

But the actual Jewish calendar can only be the one recognized by the Jews at large in order for it to be legal according to Jewish law. Thus the JW date can often be invalid when it differs like this.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

And please don't hijack this thread to become one about trying to convince a Jew that Jesus is the Messiah. You want to do that, make your own thread. I will not be participating however.

The objective of this thread is to show that the emblems used by JWs at their Memorial have both pagan and man-made origins. Just cutting and pasting what Watchtower publications claim do nothing to disprove the data I presented about the origins involved.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Hecce,

I'm Jewish. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus of Nazareth wasn't even the Messiah.

He didn't institute a "Memorial" of his death. In reality he had one last Passover and was killed the next day, never to rise from the grave.

His followers, unable to face the reality of it all, came up with stories to make a meaning out of his death. Jesus' "Last Supper" was just that, the last supper of what is now a dead man. The Christians invented their own mythology around that last meal of Jesus, but there was no real "Memorial" in historical terms.

Jesus of Nazareth is dead. He is not the Christ. He is not ruling from Heaven. The Memorial that JWs observe is therefore an empty observance.

So it doesn't matter what you say at this point. I'm not going to argue about a meaningless meeting annually observed by a cult about a dead man that was not the Messiah.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Hecce

I don't think that is needed to go to times immemorial to search for the origin of the occasion...

You might not think it necessary to go to times past to search for the origin of an occasion, but Jehovah's Witnesses do. Don't they reject the observance of birthdays and other holidays and customs based on their origins? Even if the custom as practiced today is no longer viewed as pagan, don't Witnesses still reject them due to their pagan origins?

...it is clearly understood that started with Christ and not before.

You are wrong. Luke 22:8 reads:

Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

Everyone acknowledges that Jesus got the emblems and the procedure for his observance from the Jewish Passover. The fact that Jesus had both matzah (unleavened bread) and wine and a dipping bowl (Matthew 26:23) shows that Jesus and his followers were having a Passover Seder. As mentioned above, the matzah comes from pagan spring festivals and the wine comes from a human rabbinical tradition.

If you are trying to defend Jehovah's Witnesses, you would be corrected by one of them by now. I used to be a JW, and it is against Witness theology to say that Jesus invented the Memorial. It is based on the Passover. That is the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses, that is the teaching of Christendom, and even atheists will tell you that all these things are based on the Passover.

It is also against Witness teaching to state that one does not need to go back to the origins of an observance to ensure there are no pagan or human traditions associated with it. JW theology demands that the origins not be pagan or based on human tradition.

To recap what I am saying:

1. The Memorial/Lord's Supper/Eucharist was indeed instituted by Jesus.

2. Jesus based his observance on the Passover and its emblems. These did not originate with Jesus. Even the date, Nisan 14, is the date we Jews have always observed Passover (and will observe it again this year and always).

3. The emblems of the Passover come from paganism and human tradition.

4. Jehovah's Witnesses say that it is wrong to mix paganism and human tradition in true worship.

5. Therefore Jehovah's Witnesses have created a paradox with their Memorial observance.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Hecce,

In all honesty I find the argument thin. The Jewish religion was Christ religion, and the fact that he said "keep doing this" validates the celebration.

I am a descendent of Abraham. Abraham was once a pagan, remember? He didn't always recognize or worship God.

As the above Jewish studies (and more, if you will just look them up yourself) demonstrate, Jews recognize that our people celebrated what is now called "Passover" before there was an Exodus. Even Chabad Judaism, which is quite conservative, teaches that Abraham celebrated Passover in his lifetime.

The matzah or unleavened bread comes from this ancient pagan spring festival. And the wine is a human tradition developed by our rabbis. The argument I advance is that Jehovah's Witnesses claim it is wrong to observe any holiday with pagan roots or based on human tradition. But the above Jewish testimony shows that the emblems Jesus employed come from both, meaning the Jehovah's Witnesses are just fooling themselves.

Besides, Jews don't acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. With all due respect for my Christian friends, the words of Jesus do not belie the fact that the emblems have pagan and human origins nor do they validate the views of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu,

David Jay, if I may ask, how could you ever have been trapped by the teachings of the JW's with your extensive knowledge about all doctrines and teachings of the Jews?

I was born into a Jewish family, but my aunt had to take up caring for me later in my childhood due to my being abused my parents. As for my parents, they were not very observant Jews, at least in the religion part of it. But the customs were still there: eating kosher, Jewish language, lighting candles on Friday night, etc.

Growing up in South Texas as a child I thought I was Mexican-American. My Jewish name sounds Spanish, but I grew up speaking a Jewish dialect called Ladino (the dialect of Sephardic Jews). I also ate kosher, but didn't realize this either. Sephardic Jews created much in the Tex-Mex diet, so I had no idea that I was different from any of the Latino people around me--except that my Spanish was "weird" and we didn't add cheese to our tacos (or were allowed to drink milk with meals which me and my brother would often beg to do since "all of our friends at school do it").

My uncle married a Mexican-American woman who was a JW, and she became my guardian after I was rescued from my parents. My uncle was like my parents, disinterested in the religious side of Judaism, so I got raised by my Jehovah's Witness aunt who immediately took me to meetings, field service, the whole bag.

I can tell you that it didn't last long as I grew from my teens to a young adult. I instantly recognized the Hebrew words in Watchtower literature (as Ladino is a mixture of Spanish, Arabic, and Hebrew), but was at first laughed at when I would speak in Hebrew as the brothers didn't believe I was doing it. ("That sure is a funny made up language, son, but I'm sure it sounds nothing like the real thing!" they would say to me.) As time progressed, they realized I was indeed speaking the language but never bothered to figure out how a boy my age got that knowledge.

Of course I saw through the religion as I grew into adulthood. It didn't help me to stay a Witness that in the late 1980s the Catholic Church opened the documents of the Spanish Inquisition to descendents of those who suffered, and that Portugal and Spain began to offer citizenship to me and others of Sephardi Jewish descent whose ancestors had been expelled from these countries due to the Spanish Inquisition. I was also identified as a Jew by someone I was working with who also happened to be a rabbi. I was on lists of Jews that even the nation of Israel was looking for to call back and had legal status as an Israelite--all of this and I didn't know it!

This also occurred at the same time, my decision to leave, the law of return to Spain/Portugal, the opening of the Inquisition trial documents, the rabbi who told me I was Jewish, etc. So though I was trapped for a while, you might say that I had a lifeline that kept me from being trapped.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay