Posts by David

16

God never knew Jesus would be killed?

by venus in

jesus gave an illustration with a landowner being the central character:.

“there was a landowner who planted a vineyard.

he put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower.

David_Jay

Jehovah's Witnesses have to put on blinders when it comes to this and like sections of Scripture. But Christianity is general doesn't suggest much better.

To illustrate, in the NABRE, the official Catholic Bible of the United States of America, the footnote to this parable reads:

Because of that heavy allegorizing, some scholars think that it does not in any way go back to Jesus, but represents the theology of the later church. That judgment applies to the Marcan parallel as well, although the allegorizing has gone farther in Matthew. There are others who believe that while many of the allegorical elements are due to church sources, they have been added to a basic parable spoken by Jesus. This view is now supported by the Gospel of Thomas 65, where a less allegorized and probably more primitive form of the parable is found.

This, mind you, is from the Roman Catholic Church, the denomination that makes claim to writing and officially selecting and canonizing the Gospel of Matthew. (If one counts this this happened when the Catholic Church was united with the Orthodox Church before the schism, this claim is not without some historical merit.) In other words, contrary to JW teaching (and due to critical analysis of manuscript transmission), this was not a "prediction" of Jesus or even uttered by him.

After the death of Jesus, his followers had to develop a way of making his crucifixion appear as if it were "part of the plan" from the beginning. In this instance a parable of Jesus appears to have been extended and such liberties taken with it that it now reads in such a manner to teach that the upcoming Passion events of Jesus never caught Jesus off guard (and thus shouldn't shake his followers who may be stumbled by the idea of a suffering and dying messiah).

It needs to be emphasized that Catholics see this type of interpolation as part of the "inspiration process." Jesus never really spoke this parable exactly, but by virtue of the fact that his followers wrote this and the Church canonized it emphasizes their conviction that this "added" meaning was written under the direction of the Holy Spirit. This is how John 16:13-14 is interpreted in reference to this, not that the Spirit would introduce further teachings but would interpret what had occurred and been said by Jesus in a new light.

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

David_Jay

Djeggnog,

Lunar months begin with a New Moon, literally a darkened moon face. The moon waxes larger and brighter each day until the middle of a lunar month which is marked by the Full Moon. The month ends when the moon turns dark again. The cycle takes about 29 or 30 days, with Nisan always marked as having 30 days.

This means that the 14th and 15th days of the month are the days upon which the Full Moon lands. The 13th is too early, the 16th is too late. If April 11, 2017 is supposed to be Nisan 14 (after sundown) by JW calculations then something is wrong. The moon after sundown will already have a sliver of darkness upon one side, called "waning." It waxes or gets filled as the Biblical lunar month of Nisan reaches the middle day of the month (the 15th) and wanes as it pasts that middle day.

Passover is always on the middle day of the month of Nisan. If the moon is waning, you have passed the middle of the cycle. Since the Full Moon past last night, today after sundown the 11th of April can neither be the 14th or 15th of Nisan. The visible and astronomical Full Moon was last night, and thus after sundown the moon indicates that it will then be the 16th of Nisan.

While I too appreciate the fact that varied points and opinions occur here on this forum, you cannot escape the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are observing the Memorial this year AFTER the Full Moon. This is the point I made to begin with when I made my original post on what I am doing on April 11th.

To all onlookers here it is clear you are not producing any empirical evidence to contradict the fact that according to the moon's phases the middle of Nisan has passed. The 14th of Nissan cannot land on the evening of a waning moon, neither Biblically nor astronomically. At the latest today has to be the 15th of Nisan, as Jews claim it is, making tonight after sundown the 16th.

This is the most important yearly event for Jehovah's Witnesses. With all due respect, it speaks against the claim of worshipping according to Bible truth when you claim that tonight marks the 14th of Nissan and it is clearly visible that the Full Moon waxed last night. If you cannot make your arguments coincide with what can truly be seen by all humans worldwide when looking up in the sky, your claims are false.

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

David_Jay

Djeggnog,

Tonight is the night of Spring's Full Moon, not tomorrow: http://www.space.com/36419-first-full-moon-spring-2017-shines-tonight.html

This particular moon is currently observable from Jerusalem as I write this. Tomorrow night will not be the Full Moon. JWs are incorrect, therefore. Pesach occurs on the night of the first Full Moon of Spring.

Your arguments don't mean much in the face of the fact that a Full Moon is occurring right now over my homeland. But believe what you wish. The evidence is in the sky right now.

Now if you will excuse me, it's time for me to celebrate Passover.

Chag kasher v'same'ach!

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

David_Jay

By the way, this means that Passover ends the evening of Tuesday, the 18th of April. I am not sure what your calendar is marking after that date.

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

David_Jay

Djeggnog,

While your calendar that you printed here is somewhat correct, Passover is observed on Nisan 15, not on the 14th. It is an 8 day festival, beginning with a Seder that begins at sundown on the 14/15th and merges with the 7-day Festival of Unleavened Bread on the 15th.

First, the Jehovah's Witnesses are following a lunar calendar that they made up, not the same used by the Jews which uses the astronomical New Moon (and not a visible one) to determine the beginning of a month. There is no Sanhedrin in Jerusalem to determine when a visible New Moon begins (which was an unreliable, impractical, and if it occurs during a cloudy night, imprecise manner to determine a month's start). The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has taken it upon themselves to act as the Jerusalem Sanhedrin and pretend they are watching Jerusalem's sky (which they are not). You cannot determine in advance when a New and Full Moon should be discerned from Jerusalem if it has not happened yet.

Next, and most important, we are talking about the merging of two feasts. Literalist Christians, like the JWs, refuse to acknowledge both Jewish tradition and secular history that shows that Passover predated the Exodus. It merged with the 7 day festival in observance of the Exodus from Egypt to create the holiday you see today. (See Hebcal.com at https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pesach-on-15th-of-nissan-vs-the-14th for more info).

As I write this it is Nisan 14, the day of preparation. After sundown we (already) mark(ed) the day by searching for the last of the chometz (leaven) by candlelight. We then observe the Passover with a Seder the following evening on the 15th of Nisan.

This year the 10th of March after sundown marks Nisan 15. Tuesday, when the Jehovah's Witnesses hold the Memorial will be Nisan 16.

Jehovah's Witnesses know very little about what they are doing. Remember, this religion was started by white, Gentile men in America at a time when anti-Semitism was an earmark of Christianity. Jewish "notions" were once rejected by all Christians until the Holocaust, so JWs felt it was their Christian right and duty to "restore" the Jewish calendar as they saw fit.

After the Holocaust, Christianity in general recognized that its own shortsightedness and bigotry contributed indirectly and sometimes directly to the Nazi's genocide of the Jews. Thus afterwards Christian scholars accepted Jewish academia as authentic and authoritative.

This, however, never changed groups like the Witnesses. To this day they even claim themselves as the main target of the Holocaust. So while they observe their Memorial, claiming it is Nisan 14 like a bunch of April-fool idiots, it will actually be the second night of the Passover holiday, Nisan 16, on the Jewish calendar. We call the entire feast Pesach or Passover now.

To determine the actual date on the Jewish calendar anywhere, visit Hebcal.com regularly.

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

David_Jay

As that will be Nisan 16 on the Jewish Calendar, that will be the 2nd day of Passover for me and my family.

Our meal on the 2nd night is cabbage rolls stuffed with hamburger, with a sweet tomato sauce over steamed rice, yellow cake with chocolate frosting (kosher for Passover), games, hilarious reenactments of the Exodus with an emphasis on the 10 plagues (which is essentially a pillow fight of plush toy frogs, cattle, plush matzo "balls" for hail, etc till they split apart--we're mostly adults now) and traditional Pesach songs modernized to sound like rock songs and show tunes.

This is essentially what we will do Monday night, except we hold a full Seder (but very relaxed and filled with humor). Monday night we have brisket and potato kugel.

Oh, and lots of wine and grape juice and more matzo-mayhem than you would expect.

17

The Son of God? An Atheists view please.

by Miss Worldly in

jw
friends

please bare with me on this.. firstly, i do not intend to cause offence to anyone.

i apologise if what i am saying is blasphemous to some.

i appreciate your views and mine may differ.

David_Jay

1- The bible was written to frighten or control men by men who wanted that control. The whole thing is made up stories to aid a monumental control of the people in a time when no other sources of information were available.

Actually my people wrote "the Bible" around the time of the Babylonian exile. We had been taken from our land, had no king, and our Temple was destroyed. In order to preserve our cultural identity, our ancestral stories of being a people who were once slaves in Egypt and freed to enter the "Promised Land" took on a special meaning as captives in Babylonia. What one reads in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially in Torah, has this particular slant of a Jew of the Diaspora.

We never expected that Gentiles would be reading this book, and in particular making their own interpretations of it. While it has been used to control people, that began once Christianity became the state religion in Rome. Jews already had a functioning religion and many writings before they began to assemble what would become the Tanakh or Old Testament. The writings were designed to be used for public proclamation, for the synagogue liturgical reading schedule that would annually retell these stories as our holy days approached each year.

While the narratives have some basis in the history of my people, what you read in the Scriptures is indeed a legendary take on it all. Much "poetic license" has been taken in order to reshape the stories to preserve our culture and teach religious lessons. It is neither a history or science textbook, though some Christians often attempt to use it as one or both.

Being a product of the Diaspora, there was also much information available all around the world as we are talking about the years 586-583 B.C.E., and civilizations were quite advanced by that time in history. Therefore one can't merely say it was written "in a time when no other sources of information were available."

Or 2- Jesus did exist. A man who either wanted power over people or had some sort of psychosis or other mental health problem that lead him to believe he was the son of the creator of all things. In a time when no one knew any better, people believed him, loved or feared him. Maybe even a hereditary condition passed on from his mother as she believed he was the son of God.

Jews recognize Jesus of Nazareth not only as a historical figure but as one of our very own sages. In fact, Maimonides was one of the first Jews to speak of Jesus in this manner. He was real, only not recognized as an authentic messianic figure by the Jews in general.

Those that did follow him as Messiah are the ones responsible for what is attributed to him in the New Testament writings. The sayings of Jesus are not merely made up of what his followers remembered. They also contain their own personal take on what the early Christians believed Jesus meant.

Just one of thousands of examples of this can be found in the NABRE, the official Roman Catholic translation of the Bible in the United States. In a footnote to the Sermon on the Mount at Matthew chapter 5, we read:

Although modified by Matthew, the first, second, fourth, and ninth beatitudes have Lucan parallels (Mt 5:3 // Lk 6:20; Mt 5:4 // Lk 6:21b; Mt 5:6 // Lk 6:21a; Mt 5:11–12 // Lk 5:22–23). The others were added by the evangelist and are probably his own composition.--Italics added.

All mainstream Christianity now admits that what Christians read in the New Testament are not purely the words of Jesus. They are the early church's interpretation of Jesus. This goes for Jesus' actions, his miracles, and how the first Christians interpreted his death (which explains why none of the Gospel accounts match on the subject of the Resurrection). Therefore it cannot be said that Jesus literally stated he was the direct offspring of God. This is merely how Christians composed his words much later after Jesus' death.

34

Regarding Correct Understanding of Bible Prophecies Have JWs EVER Been Right?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i seriously doubt that any jw understanding of prophecy has ever withstood the test of time.

how can anyone trust them when they are always wrong?

?.

David_Jay

notsurewheretogo wrote:

Is any bible prophecy right though?

As far as Jews are concerned there is no such thing as "Bible prophecy," not the way Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians in general state there is. Christianity tends to see prophecy as "foretelling the future," and due to this some Christians have used the Hebrew texts almost like a medium wields a crystal ball.

In Judaism prophecy was never about foretelling the future. Technically speaking, Jews never ruled out that a prophet could foretell an event, it was just not limited to such. Prophecy was a type of giftedness or talent in a person, a culmination of a person's spiritual and ethical development.

The Jewish prophets were people who witnessed great injustices in their day and were moved with ardor to speak out against them. While the person was generally speaking of their own accord, they had reached a such a level of ethical achievement that their pronouncements were "inspired" by virtue of their "closeness to God," so to speak.

Of interest: Daniel is not considered one of the Jewish prophets. Daniel is a legendary figure, and the writings attributed to him are an apocalyptic commentary on the struggle during the Hasmonean period that led up to the events now celebrated in the festival of Chanukah. The book of Daniel is placed in the Writings (Ketuvim) section of the Tanakh and not the Prophets (Nevi'im) section because of this.

34

Regarding Correct Understanding of Bible Prophecies Have JWs EVER Been Right?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i seriously doubt that any jw understanding of prophecy has ever withstood the test of time.

how can anyone trust them when they are always wrong?

?.

David_Jay

People have an innate need to feel valued. We all do. You have it. I have it. It comes with the territory of being human.

Life, however, can cause us to feel devalued. People can reject us. Some ignore us. We often don't get what we may be entitled to due to actual injustice. Even the confusion an unruly world produces can make us feel insignificant.

There are several ways people respond to this. One of them is to substitute feeling certain about oneself and about life with feeling powerful by claiming complete certainty. Kept unchecked, this substitution becomes a drug-like addiction.

Certainty is an emotional state, not something that can be measured or proven empirically. Feeling you are "absolutely right" takes away the vulnerability that comes with uncertainty. Like all other illegal drugs, it is available only for a high fee: you must expend tons of energy and effort to filter out more reality than you allow in. This often requires creating a physical world around you to protect your delusional one from falling apart.

And like other drugs, this type of certainty produces a "high." Neuroscientists have uncovered an amphetamine effect that accompanies this type of "must-be-right" denial that protects your "I'm right" feeling. Thus cutting the subject off from this "drug" comes with physical side effects similar to other forms of withdrawl. Therefore those who have substituted finding their self-worth for feeling powerful won't soon abandon their "drug." It literally hurts to do it.

Claiming insight into Biblical prophecies can be this drug. Instead of learning to accept that our value doesn't mean feeling important above others, they choose the powerful feeling that "knowing what the future brings" and "having a clear explanation" for life's various uncertainties brings as their own brand of drug. Note that for the Jehovah's Witnesses this "knowing" includes declaring themselves to be God's singularly unique chosen. It's the same type of delusion that comes with any high, where one feels central to the universe and reality.

Therefore when one interpretation fails, they merely provide another. Note how they claim that "prophecy never fails." This is a self-deluding mantra as we are not really talking about the precision or failure of "Biblical prophecy," per se, but of the failure of their interpretation of it.

And since they produce their drug "in-house," when they run out they merely make up some more .

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

David_Jay

Phizzy,

Both Melchizedek and Jethro were high priests of the monotheistic God that Jews worship today. They were also partial contributors or at least represent those peoples who contributed to the concept of "God" as recognized by the Jews.

Historically and according to anthropology, it appears that the Israelites adopted labels and some facets of God from the people living around the Fertile Crescent area and the areas referred to as Horeb or Mt. Sinai in Scripture.

Jewish theology and tradition agree that Abraham rejected the notion of the existence and worship of all deities, coming to see life and creation as the "effect" of a "Cause" greater than the human-made deity concept. In Abraham's mind it was this Cause and only this Cause that was responsible for the universe he could witness.

By likely attaching the monotheistic concept Abraham learned from his meeting with Melchizedek (whoever that was or represents) and Moses' meeting Jethro generations later, the Hebrews attached the words and labels these peoples used in their particular version of monotheism and we Jews attached it to what eventually we now call "God."

The God of Abraham that we Jews worship is therefore not a god in the traditional religious sense, but being greater than gods worshipped and invented by people we have attached some of the more common labels and words used for "deity" to this Cause. For exmple, the word ELOHIM in Hebrew is actually the word for a mighty wind storm or tempest. Since heathens often worshipped a storm god, Jews merely transferred the term to show that they attributed all such things to the First Cause of all that we worshipped.

Melchizedek is one of those clues in Scripture by which critical analytics can tie in with history and science to provide a clearer picture for understanding a more accurate evolution of the Jewish Revelation of God.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay