Posts by David

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

There is a reason I mentioned "The Annotated Jewish New Testament" and those two documents from the Vatican. These are good starting points to answer all your questions.

I made links on these materials because I expect you to see the evidence for yourself. I knew you wouldn't believe me, so I wanted to make data that verifies my claims accessible.

Don't people avoid learning about Mormonism directly out of fear sometimes? It is easier to do this for some because people fear to be proven wrong. This is what is happening here.

1 Corinthians 15:29 is not foreign to Judaism. Baptism is based on the Jewish practice of "tevilah." Converts to Judaism would engage in tevilah by immersion ( the Greek word from which "baptism" comes from) in an immersion pool or tub called a "mikveh." The experience symbolized rising from death to a new life in Judaism.

But tevilah in a mikveh is also required by Torah if one comes into contact with a dead body. One "washes away death," so to speak, by means of this.

As "The Annotated Jewish New Testament" will tell you (if you would just read it), the Greek of 1 Corinthians 15:29 can actually be rendered "washing the dead" since "baptism" literally refers to this ritual wash. While likely a play off the words and practice of Jewish ritual washing, it is not phraseology unheard of to Jews.

Mikveh is actually performed before all Jewish burials. The dead body is washed or "baptized" via tevilah. This is a proxy tevilah as the ritual must be engaged in voluntarily when alive. Therefore when a dead body undergoes tevilah via mikveh it is done by proxy, by another who "washes the dead," or baptizes you in a mikveh since you cannot. So the Mormon belief is not "new" or foreign to Jews as you claim, just given a different meaning and practiced differently by LDS.

As for what Jews expect about the Messiah, why not hear from other Jews as well. Visit JewsforJudaism.org or Aish.org for starters. You may also want to visit your local synagogue and ask those in religious education there.

Anyone following this discussion between you and I can see you have great misconceptions about Judaism and have built upon these misconceptions to build your arguments.

I go back to the OP here because the only reason you wouldn't know precisely what Judaism teaches on these subjects is that your religion doesn't allow you to be exposed to information that isn't filtered. You don't check up on these things for youself. Why not? This is out of fear. For if you just learned for yourself or read up on these things you will see that you have no sturdy foundation to stand on for your arguments. So you just keep arguing back to me here instead of looking up these things for yourself or visiting your local synagogue. Use the links and web sites I have given you. Learn from the source. Why not? Are you afraid to be proven wrong? Would you be brave enough to accept that you are?

A lot of religious people hold on to their misinformation about the Jews out of fear. You would rather argue to support your misinformed views of Judaism than stop and learn for yourself. The OP is right. It's all fear.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel wrote:

As Moses led his people and taught them, Jesus taught new doctrines that were strange to the base religion of Judaism. The Jews heard those doctrines and said, "this is not the messianic concept we were expecting. Blasphemy!"

Actually this is not true.

For instance, the Jewish Annotated New Testament shows through its various footnotes and study articles throughout that practically none of the doctrines Jesus or the Christians taught were particular new or strange. The Jewish Annotated New Testament uses the NRSV text and is available through your favorite bookseller. It disproves this very mistaken view of Mormons that Cold Steel is presenting.

Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah not due to his teachings, but due to the fact that he didn't become the Messiah, period. The concept of "mashiach" or "Messiah" is simple. It refers to the "anointing" or crowning of a person who gets accepted as king and rules as such. This means that the Jews as a whole have to recognize the person as "mashiach." It is a public act, and there is some democracy involved in it (regardless of what groups like the JWs or the LDS suggest). God doesn't merely "anoint" someone as Messiah. The people, the Jews, anoint their king.

This event didn't happen. Jesus was killed by the Romans. If the Messiah dies before getting anointed and fulfilling all he is supposed to, he is not the Messiah.

But Jesus is considered a sage of Judaism. This means his central teachings follow the core of Jewish belief. For instance, Jesus taught that the Mosaic Law was to be observed. (Matthew 5:17-19) The early Jewish Christians did this. (Acts 21:17-26) Technically speaking, as long as a Jew remains Torah observant, they can "believe" whatever they want. A Jew can believe that Jesus of Nazareth or anyone else is the Messiah as long as they don't stop practicing Judaism. Remember Judaism is not like Christianity. It's not a religion of faith or belief. Judaism is a religion you practice.

The division came when Christianity started to claim that Jesus was God Incarnate and that Christianity superseded the nation of Israel (and subsequently that the Jews were damned for rejecting Jesus as Messiah). This occurred only after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in all Jews being removed from their land by the Romans in 135 C.E. Up till that time the Hebrew Christians lived peaceably among the other denominations of Judaism. Hebrew Christianity disappeared in 135 C.E.

After this all Christians were forbidden from keeping Jewish cultural practices, and this caused the division. Jesus never taught this. The era of proselytism began, and all forms of Jewish culture (all of it is based on Judaism and observance of the Mosaic Law) were outlawed. Jews didn't reject Christ. Christians rejected the Jews.

All of this can be found not only by reading from the Jewish Annotated New Testament but from several documents from the Roman Catholic Church, two in particular entitled "The Jewish People and their Scriptures in the Christian Bible" and "The Gifts and Calling of God are Irrevocable." In these the Church admits that the division was not all the Jews fault, but one they and all Christianity played a part in. These documents, especially the latter, explain that the Church now rejects all forms of proselytizing of the Jews and teachings of supersessionism. Most mainstream Christian groups have come to accept the second document as representing their own view as well, in particular that the Jews have never been rejected by God and are still very much in an active covenant with the God of Abraham.

Cold Steel's comments are nothing more than very false information designed to create a "straw man" argument.

25

Do you feel that you are really YOU?

by UnshackleTheChains in

i am interested in finding out how you view yourself.

are really you when it comes to every day interactions....ie when at work, with family or friends, or if attending meetings?.

if still attending, do you feel you are not the real you at meetings?

David_Jay

I feel like me 100% of the time, and I try to make sure I act like me too.

When I was a JW (many years ago), I remember having to hide some of who and what I was. That was why I left. I am not happy or healthy or honest when I do that. It's wrong.

However I always felt like me, just someone who had to keep some things more private than others. Not feeling like yourself is something different. It can actually be the sign of a medical condition, known as Depersonalization Disorder or DPD. It's a dissociative disorder that can actually be caused by great stress, such as the kind regarding having to fit in when in a cult.

While people sometimes have to detach and just "go through the motions" for different situations at times (such as times of disaster or emergency), doing this for long stretches of time can lead to this mental disorder. There is only so much of "going through the motions" a person can take. Eventually a person will feel detached from the what they do to such an extent that they begin to question reality itself.

This doesn't sound like you from your post, but it can be a warning sign. No one should put themselves through this. Eventually you have to be you. Otherwise "you" will shut down. Make sure you have more than ways to merely "vent."

While I understand enduring things due to a family situation, remember that forcing yourself for family reasons is very different. One doesn't "force" a family experience. If you have to, then it means you are not really part of that family anymore or that the family may not really be there. There is a big elephant in the room. Elephants don't stay still. They will eventually stomp things and all will end up destroyed.

It sounds horrible, but cults are burning buildings. All of them are. You can try to save who you can from them, but eventually time will run out and you will have to choose whether you are going to survive or burn with those who won't leave. There's no easy out in a cult.

51

Today's W.T on GB not being inspired is having ZERO impact on most J.W's

by Isambard Crater in

jw
friends

the congregation i attend had it's watchtower study on thursday night because of l.d.c work this week-end, and another congregation i have some not very spiritual friends in had their watchtower study on wednesday.

from what i have delicately prised out of people, the congregations loved the watchtower study this week, saying it was so encouraging and all the usual stuff, with no-one seeming to realise the g.b.

said they're not inspired, so the spirit int he past has moved them to teach wrong things, and all the other ideas excellently summed up on reddit.. today's watchtower will wash over the heads of most j.w's like it never even happened, the all remaining as loyal as ever, and it makes me so, so sad..

David_Jay

I think the opposite, that it has tremendous impact. Just not the kind you think.

You see, this is a relief to hear that the GB is "not inspired." So much time has passed without anything happening the way the leaders of this religion have promised for over 100 years that there is actually tremendous stress placed upon the average JW believer. How do they make it all work out?

Simple: The Governing Body tells everyone they are not inspired.

Ah. What a relief! It's like having to pee for a very long time, not having anywhere you can go, and then suddenly you can--and now you have relief. "Nothing has happened as promised because we don't have inspired leaders. That makes perfect sense!"

These people don't want to run away. They just want someone to keep patting them on the back, making them feel special and unique and smart for "making the choice" to join the "one true religion." (They are so enlightened for doing that, right?)

But the one true religion doesn't deliver! That's okay. It's because the leadership is not inspired. Oh, okay. There's some bias confirmation I can use. I feel relief.

That's the big impact this has. It will keep people who are on the brink of letting their doubts wake them up from waking up. It's another nail to keep the coffin shut, keeping the living person on the inside from busting out. It's noise so you can't hear them shout: "It's all a lie! I'm alive! I'm not dead!"

It won't last forever. Eventually they will run out of nails and noise. But for now it's a strong new Band-Aid brand adhesive strip. Keep the festering sore covered so they don't have to look it...until it starts smelling and causing an infection. Then it will be time for some new "here's-just-any-answer-so-you-can-shut-your-inner-voice-up" again.

What's my guess the next one will be? "The increase in the memorial partakers is because the 144,000 is the number of anointed since 1914 because Revelation is a prophecy about 1914 onwards. The number can only apply to people anointed since then, not before."

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

unsure,

That's more or less how Jews view it. That's why things like "evidence of a Creator" and similar threads can be as frustrating as they are. God cannot be transcendent and then "proved" with empirical data at the same time. If you want a transcendent almighty deity you can't gather evidence from something that is by definition "beyond measure." If you have proof of a god, you don't have much of a god if you could sample something from it (which is what empirical evidence is, some sort of sample from a subject).

As for the World to Come, Jews do acknowledge such a thing. But there is a difference between "belief" or "faith" in a theological concept and acknowledging what is part of our Jewish revelation. Jews don't "believe in" anything, technically speaking (at least not in Christian terms). "Faith" is merely an exercise of mental assent and therefore valueless for us. It is what you do that proves what you are, not what creed you make claim to.

Therefore while the World to Come or Olam Ha-ba is a real promise, we will know it when we get there. Jews acknowledge this as a promise of the prophets. But we live as if there is no such thing. We don't "hope" to live forever. We are grateful that we have life now. You prove to be untrustworthy with life if you don't live it to the full. All the hope and faith in the World to Come won't land you a place in it if you do everything to get there but nothing to be grateful about right now. If you serve God to get a reward, you are likely not to get that reward.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

I am not offended by LDS beliefs. I find proselytizing repulsive.

I am not offended by Christianity. I'm Judean, of the House of David. Along with others Jews, such as those who composed and signed the Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity in 2015 (and like Maimonides) I don't view Christianity as a sham.

What Jews find repulsive from any group is proselytizing, the claim that a person requires a change to another religious view and practice, often at the expense of giving up their cultural practices (dress, worship, holy days, etc.) or the demand that they adopt new ones.

Proselytizing has been halted in Catholicism and most mainstream Protestantism and labeled as anti-Semitic. Why? Because in the past when these religions engaged in the proselytizing of Jews it demanded that they change their habit of dress, grooming, diet, exchange or stop the observance of holy days for others, etc. Basically it is how one culture destroys another in the name of religion. These groups learned after the Holocaust that proselytizing anyone, Jewish or otherwise (including atheist) is more about changing religious views. It is about destroying culture.

At the core of proselytizing is the conviction there is something faulty about another's convictions. It sets the proselytizer up as jury and judge of another. And it usually belies their claim to having the sufficient knowledge to make these judgments, such as yours:

...the Jews had not had a prophet for 400 years and were again in a state of apostasy...

We had no prophets in the first century C.E. because the era of the prophets had ended. Jews have a far different view of what a prophet is from what LDS members do. The Jewish prophets were not necessarily receiving direct revelations from God as much as they were of such moral standard that they felt moved to speak against the injustices of the time. The ability to foresee events and directly speak with God may not have occurred with any of them. Gentiles mistakenly see this in our prophets of the "Old Testament," but such an interpretation is like attributing magic traits to our sages.

As a way of comparison, the end of the rabbinical era is now upon Judaism. The majority of Jews growing up and others (like myself) belong to the Post-denominational/post-rabbinical movement, sometimes referred to as "just Jewish." Just because the rabbi is no longer being seen as the guide to the spiritual lives of Jews doesn't mean we are being punished by God. Times are changing. Jews now have at their fingertips through technology the means to research anything about their religion to make decisions about their life. The rabbi (as a religious leader) is going out of style, much as the need for the Prophets.

There is no evidence that we were then in the Second Temple era "in a state of apostasy," as you put it. Some point to the Temple's destruction as "proof" of this. This is illogical. This is like saying the horrors of the Holocaust, the persecution of the Spanish Inquisition, and the 1492 Alhambra Decree that demanded that Jews leave Portugal and Spain were sent from God because we Jews were "in a state of apostasy."

But unfortunately, you believe we Jews were in a state of apostasy. You believe that we were not being obedient of God. And is that aspect, that core or basis of proselytism that is repulsive. As Pope Francis himself has been stating through his papacy, proselytism is an illicit act.

Jews should not be offended because of our beliefs because what's the harm in it?

The harm in it? Maybe you might need to learn about the Alhambra Decree and the history of my family as we were hunted down by Christians who believed like you. For generations were were persecuted. My language, Ladino, is now rare because proselytism developed into the hatred that spawned the Holocaust. Almost 100% of Ladino-speaking Jews were slaughtered as a result of the fact that we wouldn't change over to Christian beliefs. You might not cause harm, but indirectly others who see your example still do.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

What Jews find repulsive is claiming that people require salvation. Humanity is neither condemned under some curse of sin nor requires a salvation of any sort. All people, including atheists, are inherently very good to begin with.

Jews also acknowledge that this life may be all there is. So we focus on that. If there is an eternity, it is not entered into by the Gentile religious trait of having to "believe" in doctrines or theological concepts.

Jews also teach that religion is not a requisite of all people. Being just is, but belonging to a certain religion or worshipping any particular God, even ours, is not.

The idea that people should be subject to proselytizing, being told they must change their current convictions or even some of their cultural traits or beliefs less they get less of a reward than others in eternity, that I find appalling. As long as my neighbor is just, they needn't be anything more than they already are.

And if there truly is a World to Come, then they surely have a place in it--not because they believe in anything in particular, but because they are inherently good to begin with.

Proselytizing, as you know, is considered an act of anti-Semitism by Jews when Mormons attempt it with us. And I personally view the act just as insulting of an action toward anyone else for it tells a person that they have change something or lose out for not doing so.

25

Does the Average R&F JW understand what grace is in Christianity ?

by smiddy in

i`m showing my ignorance here , not being an active member of any church before joining jw`s as a 19 yr old ,whenever i was ever confronted with the question of "grace" i was always at a loss to give an effective answer from a jw point of view.. was it just me ?

or did anybody else have a similar experience ?.

(ps , i dont think i ever heard the expression " grace" in a religious sense in all my 33 years in the borg.studying the wt.).

David_Jay

Again, this is the "Marie Antoinette Syndrome" at work.

Especially when people are born into the JW religion, and especially if they leave rejecting all religion afterwards, it can be very difficult to understand what are elementary and very basic religious concepts to others.

While it isn't a bad thing to never get involved with religion again after leaving the Watchtower, it can leave the exJW dumbfounded when they attempt to read poetry, try to understand art, or even cause problems in their attempt to keep their critical thinking at its best. For instance, the Christian concept of "grace" has inspired music, plays, paintings, caused wars, and in 1999 became a bridge between Catholicism and Lutherans in general when they came to agree on the concept (thus ending what started the Reformation in the first place). One cannot even fully appreciate the song "Amazing Grace" and its historical significance without this basic knowledge. Though as a Jew I don't have this same concept in my religion, I at least know what the Christian view means.

The significance of these things and other subjects based on nominal theology (which is never taught correctly or at all to Jehovah's Witnesses) can leave a person who has left the Watchtower lacking a significant amount of education in things necessary to understand the world around them. Some atheists often refer to other atheists among ex-JWs and ex-Mormons as a "narrow atheist" since their stand is limited to only what they've been exposed to. (The term refers to how sometimes their narrow exposure to only cult teachings cannot be used to argue against other religious systems these have no knowledge of, thus limiting their atheist stand.)

It can be difficult however to leave the "narrow" state. Dealing with what humorist Reba Riley has termed "Post-Traumatic Church Syndrome," the distaste for religion (and distrust) can be so great that ex-church members might not be able to endure corrective education even for the sake of merely understanding concepts generally shared in the world community.

This is one of the most horrible effects of cults. It can rob a person of learning simple terms as comprehended by most, thus making it challenging to at least know the basic meaning behind why people do things, create art, or what they mean when they speak of their particular convictions. Again, most people (even non-Christians like myself) understand concepts like "grace" as taught by Christians (even though we don't ourselves subscribe to it). But for some others, even the ability to heal enough to stomach learning these things has been stolen by their cult experience.

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

David_Jay

While as a Jew I do not subscribe to this doctrine, the "ransom" of Christ is his becoming the "Lamb of God," an offering to humans as "food" for their journey to "passover" from the mortal state to that of the divine.

Originally atonement theology was very basic. It suggested that God was being appeased by the suffering of his own Son. But it changed over the centuries, and currently the teaching is that Christ offered himself to humans, not to God. As 2 Peter 1:4 states, Jesus paid the price of himself in order to "enable you to share in the divine nature."

As the lamb was food for the Exodus out of Egypt for the Jews, the life of Jesus is Viaticum, food for the journey to pass from mortality to share in God's divine nature. Jesus flesh and blood are "paid" over to humans as "true food" and "true drink," not on an altar to God but on a table to humans.--John 6:55.

"Redemption" is different, however. It refers to restoring people by legal claim, or restoring something to people by legal means. Jews view the Exodus as God's redemption of his people from slavery. God paid no one to redeem the Jews as God owes no one. But God had legal claim to them by means of the Abrahamic covenant. The same covenant claimed rights and privileges to the Israelites that they could not possess as slaves in Egypt. Thus a "redemption" took place via the Exodus. Redemption in this sense involves restoration.

Some Christians still hold to an "appeasement" view of Christ's ransom. In these instances, "redemption" is somewhat of a synonym for "ransom" in a paradigm when Christ offers a sacrifice to God.

But where the theology that rejects appeasement exists, "redemption" keeps the original meaning as used by the Jews. In Christian terms it refers to restoring what was lost in Eden (according to Christianity's Original Sin doctrine), giving this back to humans via the "cost" of Christ's sacrifice.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in appeasement theology, where God requires blood to be spilled to appease his sense of justice. This view has been rejected by almost all forms of mainstream Christianity today. Even some Fundamentalist movements find the appeasement view appalling as it draws God as a bloodthirsty deity.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

Thank you for your comments.I appreciate your reply.

This is actually very different from Judaism which doesn't believe it's possible to perfectly know beyond doubt.

But I find it interesting that you and other LDS members have such a religion. I wouldn't subscribe to anything like that, but that is me.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay