David_Jay

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Posts by David_Jay

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  19

  Jerusalem's destruction.....

  by Unstuck in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hello all - so me and stuckinarut2 are at the state library proving to ourselves that wt has it all wrong re: 607. i've read at length jwfacts, jwsurvey and crisis of conscience that all go into the subject and i've just downloaded gentile times reconsidered.. while it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.. while we wait for our array of books i couldn't help but share with you how the state library has catalogued jewish history - 586 bc to 70 ad.

  no mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!

  evidence before we have our books!!.

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  David_Jay

  As for the second date:

  The fixation on the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73 C.E.) by the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christians is so very odd to me.

  The Second Temple did fall in 70 C.E., but it was by no means the end of the Jewish people. And it is not fully believed by academia that the Christians fled to Pella.

  It was with the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135/36 C.E.) when the Jews were finally barred from Jerusalem. The revolt was crushed and all Jews were removed and barred from Jerusalem by the Romans in 135 C.E.

  The original Hebrew Christians had a church in Jerusalem up until then. In fact, the last Jewish bishop of Jerusalem was Judah Kyriakos, said to be the great grandson of the apostle Jude, a cousin or other close relative of Jesus of Nazareth.

  Because the Romans had caught on to the Jewish idea that the Messiah would come from the House of David, they began to slaughter as many of them as they could after 70 C.E. Since the first bishop of the Jerusalem church was St. James the Greater, a relative of Jesus, his replacements were all relatives and descendents of David, or so they claimed.

  Due to the Roman slaughter of the Ben David line, the Jerusalem church had 16 bishops from 33 to 135 C.E. when Judah Kyriakos and his Jerusalem congregation dispersed after Bar Kokhba was crushed.

  So the date for the Roman diaspora of the Jews begins not in 70 but with 135 C.E. That is when Jerusalem was emptied of all Jews and the Christians. And the "run away" to Pella may be an embellishment of sorts. There is too much evidence against it.
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  26

  Saudi Man Sentenced To Death For Atheism

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  saudi man sentenced to death for atheism.. http://www.newsweek.com/saudi-man-sentenced-death-after-declaring-himself-atheist-online-video-591473.

  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-man-sentenced-death-atheism-ahmad-al-shamri-hafar-al-batin-appeal-denied-a7703161.html.

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  David_Jay

  _Morpheus,

  I'm Hebrew. Muslims claim to worship the God-concept that developed and evolved among my people. The Christians that charged Stephen Fry with blasphemy claim the same thing.

  My point was that it it doesn't bother me, a Jew, who is a descendant of those who developed this ancient concept, so I find it odd that other people slaughter atheists in the name of this God. I don't see that such views are blasphemous or criminal.

  The persecution of atheist and humanistic thought seems to be highlighted less in the media. People in general seem to not care as much about this as they do about what happens to religious people, and that is not right IMO. Case in point: right now it seems everybody is covering Pence and his statements that the Islamic State is engaging in a 'genocide against Christians,' but how many people seem concerned that atheists around the world are undergoing torture and beheadings simply for exercising their freedom of conscience in their own way?

  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/05/11/vice-president-pence-isis-genocide-against-christians/101552368/
  
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  26

  Saudi Man Sentenced To Death For Atheism

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  saudi man sentenced to death for atheism.. http://www.newsweek.com/saudi-man-sentenced-death-after-declaring-himself-atheist-online-video-591473.

  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-man-sentenced-death-atheism-ahmad-al-shamri-hafar-al-batin-appeal-denied-a7703161.html.

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  David_Jay

  I must say, the rise in intolerance against atheists is highly disturbing and distressing to me. Just a few days ago, actor Stephen Fry was charged with "blasphemy" for publicly declaring his views about God.

  What is it? Atheists can't give their "testimony"? It's okay if they "do it in the privacy of their own homes," but you can't be one in public?

  If you believe in God so much that the voice of a minority and that of a few outspoken individuals among them (who are simply exercising their freedom of conscience to speak their minds) calls for legal actions and mobs and executions, what kind of belief is that? If you already wholeheartedly have faith that "unbelievers" will suffer in Hell, why do you have to form a "send off party"? If you believe God will smite these people, why not just take a step back and let the god you believe in do what you say it will?

  Sure, I don't like it at all when people say or do anti-Semitic things, but merely dismissing the idea of God, saying you have a bone to pick with God, or even putting up the world's largest sign that reads: "God isn't real people. Get over it already!" ...none of that is criminal. It's not even morally wrong, and my people came up with the God thing to begin with.

  What's truly horrible, immoral, and criminal is to read about such a sorry state of affairs as this report.
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  15

  When is a JW considered "awake"...?

  by biblexaminer in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1) they begin question .

  2) they stop field service.

  3) they stop going to kingdumb hall.

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  David_Jay

  This is a trick question.

  Jehovah's Witnesses are never awake to the reality that they are in a cult. Only those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses are truly awake.
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  30

  Marrying yourself is now a thing....

  by James Mixon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok i'am old so i need some help to understand this new thing, what's the point in marrying yourself?

  this sound like a gb brain storm idea....i guess you can never commit adultery....

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  David_Jay

  I suppose this gives a new meaning to the phrase "Go f--k yourself"?
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  25

  How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read exodus 22:6-8

  jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

  8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

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  David_Jay

  I_love_Jeff was not looking for answers, thought it might seem like it.

  Now I might be mistaken, but it seems as if the OP had their mind made up on the subjects they wrote about. And that is all and good.

  Unfortunately I got a few too many unwelcomed PMs as a result from people not necessarily involved in the discussion originally that used this opportunity to harass me a bit.

  Of course, I am not saying who they were, and I am sure it was not I_love_Jeff's idea for this to happen either. I_love_Jeff was merely sharing information and wishing to explain the view that they have.

  I_love_Jeff, you are likely unaware of what was going on as are others who are reading this thread. So I just ask that if people want to play games and send people unwelcome messages privately, that you have a little more courage to bring out your points in the open to the thread like the rest of us did instead of using this as an opportunity to insult me privately.

  I'm a big boy. I am not hurt. But I don't think the OP or anyone on this site likes to be set up.

  Thanks for introducing the the original subject matter anyway, I_love_Jeff, and thanks to others who were being civil to me instead of playing games in private messages.
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  59

  FWIW -- Anonymous suggests North Korea will start WWIII before the end of this year

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know most of you don't know what anonymous is or what the real 4chan is, but both are saying that their global meta data is pointing that now with south korean elections going to a pro war candidate (moon, who is a psycho) and china saying there may be no other solution, north korea will strike first before the end of this year.

  japan has called up reserves.

  take it with a grain of salt.

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  David_Jay

  One needs to be very wary about predictions of a coming "World War III," mostly because it has become a misnomer that often gets confused with a nuclear war or any holocaust scenario.

  In reality, there was no such thing as "World War I" until 1941, when the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese got the United States to formally enter the war against the Axis Powers. With the USA added, the new situation got dubbed "World War II."

  The previous international war was merely called "The Great War" until then. After the new "buzzword" for the 1941 war came into play, the Great War became "World War I."

  Wars get their names after they've begun, and even then these can change depending on what follows or due to the final outcome. A nuclear exchange between the superpowers is often called "World War III" in the minds of many, but so are smaller nuclear war scenarios like the one we are talking about here. It has become an "anything to anybody" buzzword.

  To be honest, even if North Korea started some nuclear exchange, it might not involve the entire world at war. In fact, some important academics and historians are checking to see if the title "World War IV" may be more appropriate due to words spoken by Pope Francis between 2014 and 2015.

  Pope Francis has several times described the current world situation as a "piecemeal" world war, several times referring to it as "World War III" in his speeches to dignitaries while on his world tours. The Pope may be technically correct as almost the entire world is either engaged in the "War on Terror" or some other battle at present.

  While only history will tell if the Pope will be considered the first person to dub the present world paradigm correctly as "World War III" (and I am NOT saying I agree with him whatsoever), semantically-speaking the current situation is more of a world war than an exchange of weapons between only the U.S. and North Korea would be. If anything, one might argue that such an exchange can only add to the current world paradigm, not be the act that begins or defines it.
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  25

  How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read exodus 22:6-8

  jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

  8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

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  David_Jay

  Cold Steel,

  I appreciate your words.

  And, while it is very true that Jews can vary widely on personal convictions, all Jews, whether humanist or theist, accept prophecy as coming from God.

  Unlike the Gentile religions that believe in a supernatural or miraculous communication as forming a direct oracle from the Divine, Jews understand direct revelation from God differently.

  A direct prophecy from God can come in the form of the way something in nature works, from the mindless mountains and stars that obey the laws of the universe.

  A direct communication from God can come in the form of a strong sense of justice in the mind and heart of an atheist who then stands up and proclaims a need for change and then active fights for that change.

  The prophets of Israel were similar. They had a strong natural sense of what it meant to be just and holy. Their call for change may have been direct revelations from God, as in the experience a Mormon prophet may claim to have. But Jews see the natural incentive no less communicative and direct a line from God, and thus there is no need to see such oracles as precise dictations of a literal voice of God from heaven. The ardor of a righteous soul can in some cases be inspiration enough.

  It has been very hurtful as well to read from you in another thread that Jews will have to accept that we will be subjected to proselytizing by Mormons sometime in the future. The answer to that is no. I will never accept such a thing.

  So while I appreciate your attempt at trying to resolve things between us, I can only view your convictions on the necessary proselytizing of the Jews as disrespect. Proselytizing is considered an evil to Jews, and if you don't accept that, then you don't really respect us. It is what the Catholics did to us in the Inquisition. It is never moral. It is never right.
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  25

  How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read exodus 22:6-8

  jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

  8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

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  David_Jay

  While I cannot validate Crazyguy's exact views (as they don't represent anything found in Judaism's knowledge bank regarding our own language), however he is on a similar track to what is understood about the various names of God in Hebrew.

  The names for God came from different eras and cultures at times. They don't represent God specifically since God is ineffable in Jewish thought. But they do show the "wrestling" with the concept of God that Jews have engaged in over the centuries.

  "Shadad" is the Hebrew word at the root of "Shaddai," and it refers to someone, like a wrestling opponent, who "lays waste" (possibly with violent action) to the one he is fighting against. This the meaning "overpowering one."

  One last post script: To those wanting to argue the point further with me in private, please refrain from any more PMs. Keep the conversation here. I will be retiring from this thread for now, however, as I am needed elsewhere at the moment. So perhaps others might want to hear your point of view. You may have some good data to share.
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  25

  How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read exodus 22:6-8

  jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

  8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

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  David_Jay

  Cobweb,

  El Shaddai was also "borrowed" from another language/culture. It might have been the title of an Assyrian deity that "lost" to YHVH due to the long-lasting power of the YHVH cult in comparison to theirs. It was common in ancient cultures to dedicate conquered temples and shrines in honor of the gods of the conquering nation. In the case of the Jews, we would adopt the name to show that our religion " conquered " theirs.

  The term seems to mean "overpowering one," and thus in English it gets rendered as "Almighty." I actually don't use the term "Almighty" or "Lord" or any English terms even when speaking in English regarding my religion in everyday speech. Like other Jews I will say "El Shaddai" instead of "Almignty." When I pray in English, for instance, I might say, "Blessed are you, Adonai, our God..." instead of "Lord, our God."

  Thus the term "Almighty" is more a non-Jewish issue and may be something you might want to take up with Christian translators of the Hebrew Scriptures .