Posts by David

19

Jerusalem's destruction.....

by Unstuck in

hello all - so me and stuckinarut2 are at the state library proving to ourselves that wt has it all wrong re: 607. i've read at length jwfacts, jwsurvey and crisis of conscience that all go into the subject and i've just downloaded gentile times reconsidered.. while it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.. while we wait for our array of books i couldn't help but share with you how the state library has catalogued jewish history - 586 bc to 70 ad.

no mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!

evidence before we have our books!!.

David_Jay

Waton,

We are both correct on where the origin of Nazi comes from.

The term was adopted from the German word for "National Socialist" which is "Nationalsozialist." It was shortened to "Nazi" for short.

But it was also a word already in use, originally meaning someone who came "directly from the land," originally a native but later a farmer and then later a "commoner." At times viewed as more of an insult by wealthier classes as the term "commoner" became a synonym for "peasant" as well, etymologically it came from the name "Ignatius," which means someone who was of Ashkenazi descent. The "natius" is merely a transliterated form of "nazi," the last part of the word.

The term was somewhat of a "reclaiming" of what has become a derogatory term, such as when "queer" was adopted by some members of the LGBTQ community. For instance, the term "Queer Theology" is now common in the LGBTQ community to describe Christian theology that counters claims against homosexuality.

I have not much to add to the other comments you make, as there is question whether Dan or any other of the "Ten Tribes" ever existed. They could be a myth. But I have heard similar crazy ideas from people, like Mormons and those who grasp the straws of Armstrongism.

And I gather you are merely making reference in your last part of your comments about what is being read in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion programs, yes? I haven't been to a Kingdom Hall in about over 30 years, so I will have to take your word on what the Witnesses believe today on those matters. But it's interesting they are reading that right now.

19

Jerusalem's destruction.....

by Unstuck in

hello all - so me and stuckinarut2 are at the state library proving to ourselves that wt has it all wrong re: 607. i've read at length jwfacts, jwsurvey and crisis of conscience that all go into the subject and i've just downloaded gentile times reconsidered.. while it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.. while we wait for our array of books i couldn't help but share with you how the state library has catalogued jewish history - 586 bc to 70 ad.

no mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!

evidence before we have our books!!.

David_Jay

Anony Mous,

Actually there was a Davidic dynasty, but you are right in that it wasn't composed of the propaganda-based legends you read about in our Jewish Scripture.

There is doubt that there was a "King David" as described in Samuel and Kings. Jews regard these as legendary tales describing the government that centralized (or attempted to) the various peoples of the land which evolved into what we today call "the Jews." This dynasty of kings is responsible for making the worship of YHVH the state religion and setting up the Temple. While it is totally not impossible that there was such a person, it is doubtful the Biblical David or even a Ben David is at the foundation of this monarchy. Yet the dynasty given this name itself is not in doubt.

The Jewish take on the stories of King David is that these compose a "political apology," a Jewish form of Christianity's "right of kings." These texts were an attempt to give the dynasty "heavenly authority" for ruiling, because in all likelihood, as you mentioned, the peoples of the Fertile Crescent were not unified, neither politically nor religiously.

Like the American legends surrounding George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and the like, they are "wishful thinking," basically engendering the type of qualities the Hebrews wanted to see in their kings.

Again while this doesn't rule out a possible historical "David," my personal lineage is to those rulers who were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar and placed in the "Sephardic" region whether King David is a real individual or not. It took 20 years, but my family's been traced back to even those Jewish Christian bishops before Kyrikos who were slaughtered by the Romans for being "of the House of David" (which is why there were 16 between 40-135 C.E., as all claimed to be relatives of Jesus of Nazareth).

This also explains why many Jews, such as myself, do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Since "David" is likely a legendary figure, it seems less likely that the Messiah would be a literal individual too. "The Messiah" is seen as an era of peace personified as a perfect ruler like the legendary David by many Jews for this reason.

19

Jerusalem's destruction.....

by Unstuck in

hello all - so me and stuckinarut2 are at the state library proving to ourselves that wt has it all wrong re: 607. i've read at length jwfacts, jwsurvey and crisis of conscience that all go into the subject and i've just downloaded gentile times reconsidered.. while it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.. while we wait for our array of books i couldn't help but share with you how the state library has catalogued jewish history - 586 bc to 70 ad.

no mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!

evidence before we have our books!!.

David_Jay

Footnote: Someone asked about this, so I thought I should clarify. I wrote:

I am supposed to be of the tribe of Judah and House of David...

The words to note are "I am supposed to be."

I was asked, How do you know this?

Tradition and documentation.

The documentation comes mainly from the records of the Spanish Inquisition and the work of academic historians who have noted that some of my ancestors during their trails and torture claimed to be of the House of David. They raised this point to ask how they as Christians planned to explain to Christ in the afterlife what they did to their own relatives. Some Christian historians have called this a 'sad attempt' by my ancestors to avoid persecution. But these statements have been judged as demonstrative of anti-Semitism on behalf of the historians who felt these Jews were lying.

Tradition comes into play here. According to Obadiah 1:20, the "inhabitants of Jerusalem" had been exiled to a place called "Seferad" or "Sepharad" (there are various spellings). While the exact place is unknown, it is likely that this is mentioning the place where the House of David had been placed by the Babylonians to separate them from them the rest of the exiles. This is merely speculative, for no one knows exactly where this place was.

Perhaps, due to legend, after the Roman diaspora, it seems that most of the Cohen line (Levitical), went north into Ashkenazi territory (which became Poland, Austria, and Germany). These Jews mixed with the people of the Ashkenazi origin. These became the Ashkenazi Jews (and the last four letters of Ashkenazi is where "Nazi" comes from, the Jews mixing with these people the reason Hitler felt the need to "purge" them from the "master race").

Others, traditionally Judean and Benjaminite, went to "Sepharad." All that is clear is that by the 2nd century, the Jews were calling the Iberian peninsula by this name. It later became Spain and Portugal. Was this because the House of David was originally placed here? Was the name merely traditional, lifted from Obadiah? No one knows. Because they shared the Iberian peninsula with Arabs/Muslims, there was little mixing of the two groups allowed. Some Sephardic Jews are believed to have been of the House of David, the great teacher Maimonides among the top of the list (though he never publicly admitted to this). According to records it seems I am related to Maimonides from my mother's mother and her line, but both sides of my family, my paternal line as well, has Sephardi roots.

The only DNA marker that exists, however, is the Cohen one. There is no marker for the Davidic line. There is rabbinical support to the claims of my family, and I did grow up hearing stories from the women in my family that we were descendants of royalty and that if I were to marry they would have to investigate the family (a common tradition that rabbinical authorities claim exist in some Crypto-Jewish families which might be Davidic).

And there you have it. As to what it means, besides learning the history, there is nothing else of value I can say it gives to me. It is not where I come from that matters as much as what I do with my life now. And since there is not much to go on definitively, I can only say according to tradition "I am supposed to be." But I make no claim to the validity of this nor that it makes me any more special than anyone else in the end.

19

Jerusalem's destruction.....

by Unstuck in

hello all - so me and stuckinarut2 are at the state library proving to ourselves that wt has it all wrong re: 607. i've read at length jwfacts, jwsurvey and crisis of conscience that all go into the subject and i've just downloaded gentile times reconsidered.. while it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.. while we wait for our array of books i couldn't help but share with you how the state library has catalogued jewish history - 586 bc to 70 ad.

no mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!

evidence before we have our books!!.

David_Jay

Most Jews of the Diaspora are usually offered a sponsored trip to the homeland when we reach the age of 17. These are known as heritage or birthright trips, and they are usually made between the ages of 17-26 (though some of us go later). Many Jews have been, as I have, but some have not been able due to various circumstances.

But you don't have to go to Jerusalem to get accurate information. It's all there in encyclopedias, the Internet, or just ask a Jew. There are many Jewish websites to learn from too, such as MyJewishLearning.com where anyone can get an overview of the various facets of Judaism, it's practices, and its history.

Jerusalem was never completely destroyed either by the Babylonians or the Romans. Even the secular historical accounts are a bit exaggerated. For instance Josephus writes that more than 1.1 million people died in the Roman siege and almost 100,000 were led away as captives, leaving Jerusalem itself as a desert. The truth is that there were only about 1 million people living in the area to begin with, and there were still enough Jews living in the area from which the Bar Kokhba revolt would rise some 50 years later.

The dates of 587 B.C.E. and of 70 C.E. are the dates of the Temples falling and the seiges, but in both cases people were still left living in Jerusalem after the Temples came down.

We annually observe the Temple losses on a holy day of mourning we call Tisha B'Av, the 9th day of Av. Both Temples according to tradition fell on the same day, and oddly enough the Alhambra Decree of 1492 that expelled the Jews from Spain also went into effect on Tisha B'Av (though it was actually promulgated on the 7th of Av). So we yearly keep in mind what happened on these dates by particular customs.

But the cities that stood then were not totally destroyed, per se. As I mentioned above, there is an obsession with these dates by the JWs and some Christians who teach that this is what happened. Especially the 70 C.E. siege of Jerusalem gets imagined as if all Jews were taken away and as if Josephus' account is Christian gospel. Historians know it isn't, and they strongly doubt that the Christians went to Pella as the Jerusalem Church was left intact until the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135. I am supposed to be of the tribe of Judah and House of David, and the last bishop, Kyriakos, is supposed to be a relative to my ancestral line (most of my family was already in Seferad/Spain by this time).

Because I had relatives who were among then first Hebrew Christians, and they were living in Jerusalem when the Bar Kokhba revolt began, many scholars doubt the Pella story (or that it was as significant or supernatural as legend made it into). Judas Kyriakos was believed to have perished during the revolt in Jerusalem in 135, so what would the bishop of Jerusalem be doing in Jerusalem if there was no Jerusalem then and all the Christians had gone to Pella 50 years before? The Temple itself was completely plowed down and covered only after the Bar Kokhba revolt.

Also, after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended, the Romans would allow Jews to enter once a year on Tisha B'Av. The city itself was not totally demolished even then. Only the Jews were barred from living there.

The idea that Jerusalem was leveled was a convenient invention that supported the Christian view that God had totally rejected the Jews and punished them for their act of deicide. In fact, it would not be until the last quarter of the 20th century that the Roman Catholic Church would officially change its view on matters, reject the idea of the Jews being abandoned by God, and lift all charges of deicide. Since then mainstream Christianity has also abandoned the idea of a "totally demolished" and thus "rejected" Jerusalem.

These dates the Watchtower holds to mark only Tisha B'Av, the loss of the Temples, and not the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.

10

Alerts etc

by Xanthippe in

i wonder if it's possible for those of us who've been out decades to have alerts or alternatively see a grouping of threads in a folder or something similar if something actually happens of interest in the borg.. i'm not really interested in the day to day stuff about this cult but i would like to know if anything drastically changes as my siblings and their kids are still trapped.

i don't know anything about creating the code for forums so i don't know what is possible but if you don't ask you don't get.

this is not a criticism it's just time for me to move on and just drop in occasionally..

David_Jay

And to add to Simon's words, often the Governing Body downplays something highly significant that slips through at first. People start asking questions, asking, "Did I read this right?" Others ask for clarification, and then bingo! We suddenly have something significant.

Sometimes it's a rumor nobody believes and then, suddenly, whamo! It gets verified and suddenly with all the jabber, multiple postings, and postings that tie in, you just can't pinpoint anymore where it started from.

Cults are insidious. They are not only designed this way to slip "a list of charges" under the door and hope nobody sees, they practice and fine tune the art. So while I think it's a wonderful idea, the nature of the beast makes it impractical, nay, nearly impossible to always know when some significant, drastic change has been introduced.

12

Jesus as God. What do JW believe?

by Th3ArCh0n in

i've been looking into jehovah's witnesses beliefs and came up with a serious question, as i've found is that witnesses don't believe that jesus is god, same with the father.

but even in the new world translation, isaiah 9:6 (one of the ancient prophecies of jesus christ) it says "for a child has been born to us,+.

a son has been given to us;and the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+his name will be called wonderful counselor,+ mighty god,+ eternal father, prince of peace.

David_Jay

Diogenesister,

Since the answer is a bit complex and would take us way off topic, I will point you here for a general overview: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-world-to-come/

It is also a very JW and Fundamentalist Christian notion to think that Jewish views are to be found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Since the religion of the Jews came first, this makes the Scriptures a product, an effect produced by the religion. Therefore you often won't find our theological concepts confined to Scripture, even though Olam HaBa is what we call "being gathered to the ancestors," (Ge. 25:8, ff.), an idiomatic euphemism that occurs in the Hebrew text at the death of some of our heroic figures of the Bible.

4

The Pope - 2000 sex abuse cases backlog

by Tallon in

the pope admits to a backlog of 2000 sex abuse cases which still need to be addressed.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4503202/pope-acknowledges-2-000-case-backlog-sex-abuse-cases.html.

David_Jay

The problem is even bigger.

People tend to see pedophilia as something that affects organizations, like religious ones, or schools, or "dirty" coaches. But incestuous child abuse is pervasive in homes too, far more than what you hear in the news.

People don't like to mention it, but this is not merely a problem of organizations and people not admitting to abusing children, it is society itself not caring for children as individuals. Kids are like lower class citizens, and their words often mean little. They become "problems" or reduced to "cases" or statistics that get shuffled from one department to another.

There are school teachers who molest kids, police officers, firefighters, CEOs, political figures, stay-at-home mothers (yep, women do it too), babysitters, neighbors, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc., etc., etc. Right now people are focusing on religious organizations (and believe me, they should--and do it even more rigorously), but they are also just using religion as a scapegoat.

Society has yet to turn the light on itself in this matter. If it did, the horrors would pour out like vomit. I am an adult survivor of child abuse. I told aunts, uncles, teachers, coaches, school officials, neighbors, police officers, doctors. No one believed me when I reported it. If some did, they did nothing about it. Some of my own family members witnessed it, but did it stop? It went on from infancy until I was about 13. I had to leave home for it to stop, and to this day there are still many among my family who deny it ever happened.

I am not unique, unfortunately. And we need to stop it in our churches and schools, we need to go after the actual people, the criminals, who hide in these organizations. There are no such things as abusive or pediphile priests or elders or perverted teachers or coaches. There are just "abusers," "pedophiles," "perverts," yes, criminals. These people stop being priests, elders, teachers, etc. once they become abusers.

And there are victims that people still don't really care about as much as getting their hands on those religions and squeezing the lifeblood out of them. Sure, you want to punish those churches and groups, but do you want to help the children and survivors with as much zeal and ardor?

In my experience and that of my fellow abuse survivors, the answer is no. People love being in mobs to carry pitchforks and torches. But I would rather there be more mobs of rescue workers than lynch mobs. We appreciate people bring this problem to light, but merely being angry at these groups doesn't help the victims if you never do anything practical for them.

12

Jesus as God. What do JW believe?

by Th3ArCh0n in

i've been looking into jehovah's witnesses beliefs and came up with a serious question, as i've found is that witnesses don't believe that jesus is god, same with the father.

but even in the new world translation, isaiah 9:6 (one of the ancient prophecies of jesus christ) it says "for a child has been born to us,+.

a son has been given to us;and the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+his name will be called wonderful counselor,+ mighty god,+ eternal father, prince of peace.

David_Jay

Th3ArCh0n,

There are no direct Scriptural references anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures that mention "the Messiah." No Bible verse, as you know, says "the Messiah will do this" or "the Messiah shall do that."

It is important to realize that there are no universally agreed upon texts in the Hebrew Scriptures that all Jews accept as being Messianic. The only texts that Jews do agree upon that speak of the Messiah are those that literally speak of "the Messiah," such as in the Gemara and Midrash, post-Biblical rabbinic literature. There are no agreements among the sages or rabbis or Jews in general as to what texts of the Hebrew Bible specifically and unequivocally mention the Messiah, if at all.

Of specific interest in this matter is the Roman Catholic Church's take. Being the Church (along with the Orthodox and Eastern churches) from which Christology took shape, it's recent words are apropos here:

Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist...Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance...It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

--The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible, the Pontifical Biblical Commission, 2002, 5.21.ii, italics added.

With this in mind, it can therefore only be said that Christianity is the religion that claims to see Hebrew Scripture texts as specifically "messianic" in nature, not Judaism. Therefore I don't have much of an answer to give. The Jewish view is not static, and therefore there are no current texts I can point to in the Tanakh that are specific or generally agreed upon. Some view texts that mention a king ruling in the name of David and of peace on earth between animals in the Prophets as messianic, but like the Catholic Church, I have to admit that the rest is really Christianity's doing.

12

Jesus as God. What do JW believe?

by Th3ArCh0n in

i've been looking into jehovah's witnesses beliefs and came up with a serious question, as i've found is that witnesses don't believe that jesus is god, same with the father.

but even in the new world translation, isaiah 9:6 (one of the ancient prophecies of jesus christ) it says "for a child has been born to us,+.

a son has been given to us;and the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+his name will be called wonderful counselor,+ mighty god,+ eternal father, prince of peace.

David_Jay

TTWSYF,

I was not writing about my personal views. I was explaining the general Jewish understanding of the text. The following is also the same, as I am merely offering the nominal Jewish view (not my personal one as a Jew). I will offer my person take at the end, however.

First off, Jews don't believe there is a need for salvation. There is no belief in the Christian theology of Original Sin, therefore there is no theology in Judaism about the coming of a savior of any type.

The Jewish tradition of "the Messiah" developed after the time of the Prophets and before the rabbinic era began*. It was partially set in place due to the hope of restoring the Davidic dynasty after the Babylonian exile ended. When the Hasmoneans (Maccabees) began to rule, this set off the hopes even more, especially since the Hasmonean dynasty evolved into the Herodian rule, and it turned out to be corrupt and oppressive. Messianic hopes were thus shaped on the popular hopes and needs of the people, especially once the Herodians became partnered with Rome.

Thus prior to the Bar Kokhba revolt (which happened about 100 years after Jesus of Nazareth's ministry), the Jews conceived that the Messiah would be a literal person. After the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in 135/36 C.E. and the Romans removed the Jews from Judea, the idea of the Messiah became more abstract. Today some Jews still see the Messiah as an individual who will rule as king. However in today's modern society it is not likely that a monarch will be accepted by all living in Israel, let alone all people in the world. The Messianic concept speaks of the Messiah's rule as having at least some effect on the world scene, if not directly ruling over every nation. The past views of a "monarch" or "high priest" Messiah, therefore, don't seem to be literally possible, effective enough for ruling today's complex society or even desirable now.

Therefore the Messianic concept is viewed by some Jews to have been a personification of a time when humanity will reach peace between nations, when humanity will see past its differences, when the world will be a better place. As a consequence, some Jewish denominations, like those belonging to Reform Judaism, do not accept the idea of the Messiah being viewed as a literal person. It is also unclear to a few if the Messianic Era is something that will precede Olam HaBa (the eschatological "World to Come" of Judaism) or run concurrently with it. Most Jews seem to share the view that it will come before.

As for my personal views? Well, since Jews don't subscribe to "beliefs," I don't have an opinion as to which of these Jewish views are the "correct" one and which are not. Since there has never been nor is there now an expectation of a "savior" in Judaism, I have no view on the matter. It is a non-issue to me since Judaism does not read these texts in Isaiah as promising as "savior."

*--The rabbinic era is believed to be coming to an end today after about 1000 years. There will likely always be a need for rabbis to help serve Jews, but they are less and less being accepted as the final word on Jewish practices and theology. Today, especially with the Internet, most Jews live without a particular rabbi as their consultant and find the answers they search for themselves. Many rabbis serve merely on an ad-hoc basis, such as for weddings and funerals, etc.

This evolution in Judaism is now considered a normal earmark. First, we had the era of the Patriarchs, followed by that of Moses, then of Joshua and the Judges, the Kings, the Prophets, and then the era of the rabbinical teachers. Today Jews often speak of the current era as being "post-denominational, post-rabbinic," with members in the denominations under rabbis steadily decreasing in comparison with the post-denominational Jewish group which is increasing.

12

Jesus as God. What do JW believe?

by Th3ArCh0n in

i've been looking into jehovah's witnesses beliefs and came up with a serious question, as i've found is that witnesses don't believe that jesus is god, same with the father.

but even in the new world translation, isaiah 9:6 (one of the ancient prophecies of jesus christ) it says "for a child has been born to us,+.

a son has been given to us;and the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+his name will be called wonderful counselor,+ mighty god,+ eternal father, prince of peace.

David_Jay

We Jews have had this text in our Scriptures for millennia. Not only do we not accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, we have not ever read this to think it foretells the incarnation of God. The text isn't even viewed as messianic.

While I totally reject the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses, even its anti-Trinitarian stance (though I don't subscribe to the Trinity, of course), these texts never literally say the child is "the Messiah," and the use of the word "God" in a name is very common in Hebrew. "Michael," for instance, is literally "Who is like God?" The Witnesses take advantage of such views to promote their very odd take on Christology.

Jews see these verses as applying to Hezekiah. He is given a name at his birth at Isaiah 9:5 which in Hebrew reads: Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom. The "el" part is the word "God." In Hebrew it means: "The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler." It is describing Hezekiah as being the graceful, peaceable ruler planned by the Mighty God, the Eternal Father. Jews don't read it as if it is saying that the child is God.

However, the central view of Christianity is that God came in the Person of Jesus Christ. While not immediate from Scripture, the idea predates the canonization of the Bible (at least the New Testament). The teaching that Jesus is not God come as Epiphany creates a foreign, problematic form of Christianity. Christian tradition is that God became man so man could share in God's divine nature. The Watchtower view is a poor cousin form of Christianity by comparison.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay