Posts by David

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

But that's just it, Crazyguy. I never said it was original.

It's unique, it's different. Original? Jews don't teach that. That comes from Christianity.

I think that causes a problem sometimes between what I actually write and what some people conceive when they read it. The Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christians have so programmed it into most people that the Jewish religion is original, that when you read things I or other Jews say about ourselves you read it through the Christian-colored glasses you were provided with years ago.

It isn't your fault, Crazyguy or anyone else's. It is hard to process a view that isn't what you are sure of. It's like when I tell people that I done believe in God, but that at the same time I'm a theist and know God is real. I've had people tell me that can't be true not because they've studied and experienced how Judaism works, but because Christianity has colored people's minds to thinking that all religions are belief systems.

The same is true with a lot of those who shake their heads at what I've written here. They're not necessarily disagreeing with me. They're disagreeing with what they're projecting from Christianity when they read my words, even if they are atheist now. The only definitions of religion and spirituality that many Westerners know, both theist and atheist, are Christian definitions. So when you read my words you hear Christianity still, not me.

Thus you mistakenly read that I am saying that Judaism is original. You "hear" that when I say "different" and "unique." I am not the one saying this. You've got Christianity on the brain. You have to read my words at their own value and stop reading what isn't there.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Judaism is a collection of beliefs from all the countries that surrounded them and conquered them. Then Christianity does the same. The similarities between their beliefs and that found in ancient Egypt are astounding.

Judaism is not a religion of beliefs. It is one of practice.

Jews don't have to believe in God, for instance, yet will still pray to God and observe Torah: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/

Judaism is quite different from the religions it competed with. It rejected the concept of deities and images. It demanded a morality that went beyond action, such as laws against coveting. And it rejected the ideas that animals were or could be divine: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-ethics-some-basic-concepts-and-ideas/

I have to admit, however, that for some people the idea that God even as understood by the Jews still has to be fraudulent. Others without any experience in Judaism or without even having contacts who are Jews will claim that their interpretation of Judaism is correct while what the Jews understand about themselves is wrong.

All I can say is that one's views on Judaism, it's history and Scriptures will always be questionable if the person promoting them cannot at least read and speak Hebrew. That's the least and perhaps simplest thing to do, step one in really being knowledgeable about the Jews.

But alas, the world is still filled with so many unmarried marriage counselors. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't get it to stop thinking it's right about everything.

17

The convention releases are up on JW.org

by NikL in

jw
friends

assuming anyone cares :-).

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/jw-convention-releases/.

they are releasing another bible story book targeted at kids.. sheesh!

David_Jay

I love all these Caucasian Jews in these illustrations! Just like in Israel...oh, wait. Nope.

Well, at least there are Jewish people in paradise...wait, no kippahs or beards and locks.

And this is supposed to be accurate? The black kid gets to play with the white children as long as he wears Western clothing. But notice how the folks from India are in the background? They are arriving late because no one told them about this gathering (they probably just tolerate them and their weird clothes anyway).

But at least their daughter gets to ride in on an elephant in a non-stereotypical, non-insulting-to-people-from-India fashion.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Anony Mous,

Did you know that George Lucas developed Star Wars based on themes from the novel Dune and the comic strip Flash Gordon?

Lucas originally wanted to film a remake of the old Flash Gordon movies, but he couldn't obtain the rights. So he took elements from Dune (like the hero coming from a desert planet during a time of galactic war) and Flash Gordon (turning the sword fights between Ming the Merciless and Flash into the lightsaber duels between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi)--and there you have it, an original story created by George Lucas!

Lucas was inspired by the elements of other stories and authors, but no one challenges that he didn't create something from this that was totally new and unique. Star Wars is not simply Dune or Flash Gordon re-conceptualized. It has become an original mythology in its own right.

The elements in Jewish writings do indeed come from the Mesopotamian culture from which the Hebrews sprung. After all, it is all they knew. But the Jews aren't taking credit for these elements of saying the original elements mean only what they decide, and I never wrote that.

The Tanakh is a unique work in its own right. What I wrote was that since the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures) was written by the Jews, then they like any other author of a writing, the Jews have a clear claim to its meaning.

The Jews didn't actually set out to merely change the religious views of others and make new stories to redfine them. If you've been following everything I've written so far, the Tanakh is really a story about how we left those things behind to become what we are today. It describes the meaning Jewish cultural practices came to have for Jews, regardless of their origin (kind of like how an atheist can celebrate Christmas with their own meanings attached to it). We made something new out of our origins and have even left much of what you read in the Bible behind thousands of years ago.

We make no claims to the elements that made up the Semitic world from which we sprung. I am only talking about the books we wrote, saying what Jews wrote for their own people has a specific intended meaning.

But if you believe that Jews don't have a right to interpret their own writings, then that means I can interpret what you write in your posts to mean something you didn't intend.

I can say your posts have hidden racist comments and secret messages to encourage pedophilia and attacks on atheism. I can say your interpretation of your own writing doesn't matter. After all, the words you are using were not developed by you. You didn't create the English language. How can you then make claim to the meanings of English words you wrote?

You see, that's just foolishness. Authors have a right to claim the intended meanings of their own compositions.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Fairlane,

Who decides how Americans understand and use their legends like the one about George Washington and the cherry tree, Johnny Appleseed, Betsy Ross or "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere"?

Just because these and other American tales are old, have been added and subtracted to, argued over and questioned (especially the ones about Paul Revere and Betsy Ross), does this mean that Americans shouldn't have claim to their own cultural legends? Should others decide who gets to state what their purpose and meaning are or should Americans?

Jews had a purpose in composing the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible), and the Midrash, and the Talmud. Why do the claims of non-Jewish people over the purpose of our writings negate the original reason we composed them in the first place? Not saying others can't have their own interpretation of them, but they are our cultural legends, our stories, developed by our religion. Doesn't the culture and people of the Book have a say in what the Book is for?

Why does everyone want to claim our writings as their own? Many who do then turn around and use them to reject and persecute us! Non-Jewish people can't even read the Hebrew Scriptures unless someone translates them into your language. If the language of your culture isn't Hebrew, that should indicate something about who it's intended for.

Believe what you want on "who decides" regarding the purpose of Jewish cultural and religious works. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you're going to use our books and ignore our reasons behind them, lay off! You've got your own culture. Use your people's stuff.

How would you like it if I took the history of your family, interpreted the way I wanted to, and then used this interpretation to tell the world your were damned? You want a religious book that you can interpret the way you want, then make up your own.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Thanks cobweb and everyone else who has allowed me to share these things. The main objective is to show people how far Jehovah's Witnesses are from the reality of Scripture and the concept of the God of Abraham.

I also want people to know that religion in itself is not considered a requisite for the world by Judaism. As long as people avoid worshipping false gods and live lives that are just and work to bring healing where and how they can into the world, people can find ways to give their lives purpose and real meaning. If there is an afterlife, that's all it takes to get there: being honest with yourself and the world.

Remember, Jews can differ on how they explain and build upon these concepts I've explained. There is room for that in Judaism which is why you have people who make it all mystical, like with Kabbalah, and people who trim it down to its very logical premises, like Humanistic Jews...and everything in between (even some Buddhist Jews, if you can imagine that).

The Jewish approach is not perfect. We have people who get radical with it and have used it to excuse their acts of hatred (like the Orthodox Jew who ran through gay pride parades in Israel stabbing LGBT people), and there are Hasidic movements which are cousins to Christian Fundamentalists. And Orthodox and (a few) Conservatives still like to go around deciding who are Jews and who aren't, not to mention the problems in Israel which currently stem from a government that leans toward and gets support from the radical right and suffers from corruption. Even some of the more liberal Jews might not be as caring enough about our culture as they should be.

No one's religion or culture is perfect or has an exclusive claim on "the Truth." Ours surely doesn't. But one thing's for sure: Jehovah's Witnesses can sure screw up the Bible and its intended purpose.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Good questions, dubstepped.

1. While God is unknowable, this generally means that humans cannot fully conceive God. But people can interact with God and vice versa. Worshipping God is known as a "service." You can hold a service at a synagogue or at home. A service consists of a series of traditional prayers, usually chanted, and often a reading from the Scriptures. On Shabbat (Sabbath) the reading is from the Torah. However you can also do the service at home or wherever you are. Our prayer books (Siddurs) have a service for morning, evening, holy days, bedtime, etc., so not all services are meant to occur outside of home. If you've ever been to one, synagogue services are like a Catholic Mass without the kneeling and without Holy Communion as the Mass is based on the ancient synagogue services.

2. Yes, the "Cause" term is practically universal. But again, since there are no creeds to assent to, this can (and will differ) from Jew to Jew in specific detail.

3. The Temple sacrifice system was universal in the ancient Mesopotamian world. People believed the gods gave food, so they would give a little back to the deities through their priests at their shrines to say thanks. There was also the universal belief that blood literally had life in it, so that animals had to be slaughtered via a worship ceremony in which the blood was offered back to the gods. Torah has God allowing this system to remain among the Jews with some changes: blood can be offered along with acts of repentance to cover sins, and no image of God could ever exist there. These systems basically were the butcher shops of the ancient world, even in Judaism. The Prophets would later tell the Jews that God doesn't really demand sacrifices.

As to narratives where God speaks in the Scriptures, remember these are stories. The animals in Aesop's fables speak too, but no one takes these literally. However, even atheists will sometimes say "I think the universe is trying to tell me something." This, in Judaism, is God talking. These moments of "clarity" were merely dramatized in the Bible as speech between the characters and God.

4. No, the monotheistic Hebrew God concept seems to have co-existed with other gods. Eventually the monotheistic system won out. Now most of the world claims it as their own. Christians claim they are now the "keepers" of this concept and so do Muslims, both often declaring that they respectively superseded Judaism. But we did borrow the names and some of the customs in some areas from paganism. Many Jews see this as evidence that paganism is merely the universal struggle to recognize the divine and Torah, and thus "truth" cannot be said to be limited to Judaism.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Cobweb,

To understand the Jewish take on God you have to abandon two concepts you kept repeating: belief and the idea that the God of Abraham is a deity.

Christianity is a religion of belief, whereas Judaism is a religion of practice. While Jews do indeed have convictions, they act on them instead of put faith in them. A practicing Jew can be agnostic or even atheist yet at the same time pray and accept the reality of God. How?

That has to do with the second point: YHVH is not a deity. There are no such things. Those are inventions of humans. The universe is a product or effect of a Cause. That Cause is the God of Abraham.

Just as we adopted the names of gods that our concept "conquered," the word "God" is no different. The Cause is so great that it is ineffable, unknowable, inconceivable. And yet this Cause appears to interact with us. We are aware that the world has not always been here. It had a Beginning, and the universe is governed by laws.

This is what Abraham came to realize and passed down to his progeny. Pagans worshipped gods, but the Hebrews felt nothing but this Cause deserved the credit that the pagans gave to deities. At the same time they wrestled with the idea of worship and blind obedience. This became seen as enlightenment. The Hebrews were not to be blind worshipers of the Cause but work in cooperation with the Cause in a partnership.

The partnership is the covenant. The scientific laws that govern the universe is Torah. Torah has a human facet to it. Humanity suffers and causes suffering when we ignore it, just as much as when we ignore the physical laws. The Torah written in Scripture is an early attempt to understand these laws, but they are just very early and fuzzy glimpses of it. So Jews don't follow Torah as written in Scripture. They use it to see Torah clearer in each successive generation.

Because the physical universe is real, the Cause is real. Because we can learn the scientific laws and can tap into laws that seem to benefit humanity (such as being just, honest, respecting the rights of others, etc.), Jews understand this as tapping into the "Divine," so to speak.

Lastly, Judaism is not based on the Scriptures as an authoritative text. Scripture is a product of Judaism. The practice of Judaism is the authority.

The above is very simplified. It can cause headaches for some. This is also very generalized as Jews don't have a central creed since we don't believe in giving mental assent to concepts (such as having "faith" in a doctrine like Christians). Some of this spells out exactly how I practice Judaism but some of it reflects that of others and not my own.

Basically speaking, since this world, the effect, is real, thus so is the Cause. Therefore God is real. Just as I don't believe in the world as it is here and doesn't require my belief to be real (it just is real), the same can be said for my position on God.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Hairtrigger,

Your comment reminds me of the time when two missionaries from a strange cult (that believes God has a wife and that we need to worship this mother as our God) came to my door not too long ago. It was a man and wife who looked like Jehovah's Witnesses' poor cousin.

They told me of this concept of "Mother God" and immediately opened a Bible to Genesis where God says: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." They explained: "See, God is speaking to Mother God."

I then explained how this reads in Hebrew and even said the verse in Hebrew, explaining that this is not what the text implies.

The man was taken aback, but the woman frowned, leaned in closer to me and cursed me, adding: "You Jews! What do you people know about the Bible?"

She cursed me again and they left.

47

Has the Bible been redacted so that YAHWEH can be promoted to EL's position as Almighty God?

by I_love_Jeff in

for background, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yahweh, the section, "iron age i: el, yahweh, and the origins of israel.

" "el and his sons made up the assembly of the gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes the sons of el, including yahweh, each receiving his own people.

"el, the kind, the compassionate,' 'the creator of creatures,' was the chief of the canaanite gods, and he, not yahweh, was the original 'god of israel'—the word 'israel' is based on the name el rather than yahweh.

David_Jay

Someone has just asked me a question privately that has to do with the above. I have their permission to discuss what was generally covered as it is important to add.

So are you saying that the Jewish concept of God is merely the worship of pagan deities that has evolved into the Yahweh of the Bible?

No. This is an evolution we are describing, and just like in biological evolution we have the pattern of "survival of the fittest," it is the same thing here.

We are talking about competing concepts: the monotheism which is ascribed to Abraham vs. the religion of the peoples of the Fertile Crescent. The monotheism won out, especially when the Davidic dynasty attempted to enforce it by law. When the Babylonian exile occurred, this convinced the Jews it was because they were not faithful to the monotheistic concept.

Like nations that conquered lands and rededicated their temples to those gods worshiped by the victors, the Hebrew God took the names of the gods it "conquered." The monotheistic God of Abraham existed side by side with the Canaanite El, but the God of Abraham won the evolutionary battle of theology and took the name of El as "booty."

This helps to explain the meaning behind the narratives of the Hebrews being a conquering army that overtook Canaan after having been nothing but slaves upon leaving Egypt. In reality they just merged with the people in the Fertile Crescent, but their way of worship eventually overtook Canaan, and the Canaanites assimilated or "were destroyed" as if by battle. Get it?

The Jews, while in Babylon, recalled this lesson and used it to preserve themselves by composing the foundation of the Bible as we know today. It was the way to cement their own culture and keep the Jews separate as a people until they could return to their land. In turn, that was another way that YHVH conquered the gods of Babylon, so to speak.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay